| No Creed But Christ - Restoration Movement The forum for members of the restoration movement including Disciples of Christ, Church of Christ, and Independent Christian Churches. |
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22nd February 2008, 01:49 PM
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Edit: The book author mentioned above by me is - Earl Irvin West.The Search for the Ancient Order.
Crawfish offered - That's [my reasons given for why the RM ended] actually not historically true.
I don’t know that I would debate one author’s perspective of “why” the RM ended over the other. I am well aware of the divisive influences IM was already placing upon congregations by 1865. The statement that wealth was a factor as to whether or not congregations had IM is categorically spurious.
What can clearly be established is that is was the ideas of men and offerings of work and worship without scriptural support that ended the RM.
crawfish said - Even the Missionary Societies did not, at first, cause division among the early Restoration churches. Some decided to support them, some not; but there was still sharing between both types of congregations.
As with many new offerings to the church for which there is no scriptural support, they must be studied.
crawfish repeated (from his author?) - The beginning of the end of the Restoration movement was the Civil War.
This is just not so, although the war must have had superficial effects. Given the liberal climate of ACU these days, I am not surprised that the “perspective” of Holloway and/or Foster is that governmental and political factors were more causative of the end of the RM than disagreement upon doctrinal factors.
--- --- --- ---
Last post I said… The cry of "legalism" is too often shouted for not doing or not having to do just what God has said in His word.
Crawfish offered - You mean...what you "think" God meant in His word, and how you "believe" God meant you to interpret it?
There is some truth in this reply. It is indeed what I “think” God means. I take scripture and attempt to interpret it as God has interpreted His own word throughout the OT era and into the NT era. See Nadab, Saul, the woman at the well (Jn. 4)…
However, when I can produce SCRIPTURE for what I "think" God means or wants in regard to MUSIC in worship,
and you CAN NOT offer even one scripture to authorize your IM practice… well…
What do you “think” that MEANS ???
At the least it means some things have not changed in over 100 years!  |
22nd February 2008, 04:27 PM
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Reps: 10,818,175,665,014,668 (power: 10,818,175,665,020) | | Originally Posted by Apollos1  I don’t know that I would debate one author’s perspective of “why” the RM ended over the other. I am well aware of the divisive influences IM was already placing upon congregations by 1865. The statement that wealth was a factor as to whether or not congregations had IM is categorically spurious.
What can clearly be established is that is was the ideas of men and offerings of work and worship without scriptural support that ended the RM.
The truth behind this is that the scriptural support behind IM restrictions was fully developed years after the official split. Wealth was definitely a factor; granted, not the only factor. Some of the RM pioneers (Campbell in particular) were not against IM on a scriptural basis but on a practical one; they saw the use as "entertainment" and a distraction from the truth of God's word. No doubt this has been and is true in many cases. He was also opposed to the "beautification" of churches through expensive items like furnishings and stained glass for the same reason.
It was the early 1900's before non-IM CofC's began to establish IM as scripturally incorrect, long after the splits. It is simply easier to establish restrictions on things that you and those you associate with do not do. Thus, the obvious challenges to their flawed logic were never put into the spotlight. As with many new offerings to the church for which there is no scriptural support, they must be studied.
Granted, but as indicated above, the un-scriptural view of such things was not adopted until after the split. This is just not so, although the war must have had superficial effects. Given the liberal climate of ACU these days, I am not surprised that the “perspective” of Holloway and/or Foster is that governmental and political factors were more causative of the end of the RM than disagreement upon doctrinal factors.
There is no question that the major splits occurred during this time. It's not too difficult to put two and two together and figure out that the nation's deep divide had effects within the RM movement. Baptists, Methodists and other groups also suffered disunity for the same reasons. There is some truth in this reply. It is indeed what I “think” God means. I take scripture and attempt to interpret it as God has interpreted His own word throughout the OT era and into the NT era. See Nadab, Saul, the woman at the well (Jn. 4)…
However, when I can produce SCRIPTURE for what I "think" God means or wants in regard to MUSIC in worship,
and you CAN NOT offer even one scripture to authorize your IM practice… well…
What do you “think” that MEANS ???
At the least it means some things have not changed in over 100 years!
I also cannot offer even one scripture to authorize church buildings, songbooks, song leaders or even crackers for the Lord's supper. What I can do is make a logical leap using the scripture indirectly to know that they are not displeasing to God.
Which is the same thing I've done with IM. The logical flaw in anti-IM thinking has always been that it can separate IM from all the other things that are not explicitly authorized, and for IM only it ignores the implicit arguments that show that it is not contrary to God's will.
I don't want to mess up this excellent RM thread any more than I have...so if you want to argue certain points, please start another thread or dredge up on of the others we already argued. in.  |
22nd February 2008, 06:56 PM
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Reps: 2,164,740,823,093,743 (power: 2,164,740,823,104) | | Originally Posted by DerSchweik Personally, I am a staunch proponent of the principles of restoration – but in the broader context of restoring more than just the “worship practices” of the modern church to those of the first century church (“pattern” for pattern’s sake is just legalism, imo), but to restoring the life, vigor, and vitality that characterized His church in the first century, a church which, doing His will so faithfully, experienced remarkable church growth and spread of the gospel, remarkable faith and lifestyles, remarkable love for – and devotion to – one another.
This, to me, is the appeal (and IMO the charge) of “restoring NT Christianity,” of returning the modern church to the faith and lives that God blessed so powerfully in the first century to similar faith and lives today.
Has the restoration movement lost momentum? And if so, how do we restore it?
Just throwing the question out there for discussion. God bless!
At my church (church of Christ), we have life groups. Now, i understand that some do not agree with life groups, but since the inception of life groups there has been a renewed vigour to sermons, worship, prayer and singing. I think part of this is actually meeting in your own home. That closeness enables sharing and discussion of scripture that I have felt to uplifting and quite the learning experience. Each life group has one or two elders assigned....
Just some thoughts of many I have :-)
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dir="ltr"> I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
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22nd February 2008, 07:06 PM
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So some of us have differences here and there....
And some of us are very strident in our positions.
If we're lacking in anything, it seems the ability to debate amongst each other is not one of those things. 
Question: Are these differences insurmountable to working together to restoring some momentum back into the movement?
A couple of people have mentioned or asked, "what can be done?" w/r to moving towards regaining some momentum.
What I would like to see, at least, is us working together to making this forum a place people would want to come, stay, contribute, and or hear (well, read) the gospel. I don't have the answer on the specifics.
We've discussed IM in the context of a tool for a changing world to bringing people to church who might not otherwise come. So let's drop the IM and replace it with RM.
Q: What would an equivalent strategem be to getting people to come here, to this forum and hearing the gospel, learning more about the RM, sharing (and hopefully studying) the word of God with people who do come?
Q: Do we have something of value here? Is the RM still relevant and of worth? I believe we do, and it is! If so, how do we expose it, share it, and promulgate it?
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22nd February 2008, 07:15 PM
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Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,846) | | Originally Posted by Molal At my church (church of Christ), we have life groups. Now, i understand that some do not agree with life groups, but since the inception of life groups there has been a renewed vigour to sermons, worship, prayer and singing. I think part of this is actually meeting in your own home. That closeness enables sharing and discussion of scripture that I have felt to uplifting and quite the learning experience. Each life group has one or two elders assigned....
Just some thoughts of many I have :-)
Personally, I like these groups - in many respects they are closer to the pattern we see in Acts and elsewhere than our larger congregations, which have emminent value as well.
Some abuses have occurred during the heyday of the discipling ministries w/r to church authority and accountability, but I think these abuses are easily curtailed - elders, as you mentioned, being one of the measures available.
On the topic of discipling - one of the things I see in the NT pattern is pastors/preachers/evangelists discipling men to fill their positions, men who can go on and disciple others. They weren't men whose sole responsibility was to preach and teach. Given their measure of the Spirit, they brought up others as well (cf Paul and Timothy, Timothy and others).
Any ideas on this forum's ability to become more effective too?
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22nd February 2008, 07:35 PM
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Reps: 2,164,740,823,093,743 (power: 2,164,740,823,104) | | | Effective forum........to be effective we really need to attract people to the forum. To attract people they need to have a reason to come here.
1. Weekly, biweekly and/or monthly memory verse? Simple, easy to create. We could start with poignant verses that speak directly to our relationship with God or how to be saved (five steps, etc.)
2. Advertise! We create a group of people who go out and advertise this area of the forum.
3. Weekly bible studies. Create an education program wrt to God's word. Maybe make it topical (news, world news, life changes, etc.) or theological such as word studies, or studies that discuss the historical setting of the bible and it's different books.
4. Can't think of a 4..........
Anyone else think of anything to add.
I understand that you may have problems with my ideas - but I am really trying to bring people to this forum - once they are here we can create a more serious forum - but without people we have nothing....
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dir="ltr"> I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
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22nd February 2008, 07:57 PM
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Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,846) | | Originally Posted by Molal Effective forum........to be effective we really need to attract people to the forum. To attract people they need to have a reason to come here. I agree. There must be something of value here for people to want to come and contribute.
Originally Posted by Molal 1. Weekly, biweekly and/or monthly memory verse? Simple, easy to create. We could start with poignant verses that speak directly to our relationship with God or how to be saved (five steps, etc.) I like! And threads to share verses, perhaps topical ones, salvation, faith, grace, the Word, baptism, One Another, church, worship, etc. Something like "Topical Verses: Faith" etc.
Originally Posted by Molal 2. Advertise! We create a group of people who go out and advertise this area of the forum. Do forum rules allow us to advertise? - must check ways we might...
Originally Posted by Molal 3. Weekly bible studies. Create an education program wrt to God's word. Maybe make it topical (news, world news, life changes, etc.) or theological such as word studies, or studies that discuss the historical setting of the bible and it's different books. We have a number of qualified men and women in here capable of sharing some awesome studies that could help all of us!
Originally Posted by Molal 4. Can't think of a 4..........
Anyone else think of anything to add.
I understand that you may have problems with my ideas - but I am really trying to bring people to this forum - once they are here we can create a more serious forum - but without people we have nothing.... They're all good ideas and helpful to stimulating more ideas! Bottom line I agree with - must make the forum a place people want to come and park awhile.
Good stuff! Thanks! In fact - I'm gonna start a topical verse sharing thread right now.
__________________ "I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you." - Isa 44:22 |
23rd February 2008, 03:42 PM
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crawfish –
I certainly do not want to be disruptive to the “movement” here, so I will be brief…
crawfish said - The truth behind this is that the scriptural support behind IM restrictions was fully developed years after the official split. … … It was the early 1900's before non-IM CofC's began to establish IM as scripturally incorrect, long after the splits. [Emphasis mine-Apollos]
You can’t be serious! Are you blindly repeating what you have read in the likes of Holloway’s book?
Serious contentions over IM came as early as 1851, died down, came up again, and died down. During the Civil War the issue of IM was idle for 4 years to deal with what some would call more pressing matters. But shortly after the war the issue of IM arose once again. Allow me quote W.K. Pendleton from the Millennial Harbinger (March 1864) .
“With respect to instrumental music, I presume that no one at all acquainted with ecclesiastical history will pretend to claim for its introduction in the church any pretence of primitive authority or warrant… …The best authroities seen agreed that the first introduction of the organ, or any other instrumental music, (for the organ was the first form used,) was after the time of Thomas Acquinas, for this eminent man himself declares, (A.D. 1250) ‘Our church does not use musical instruments as harps and psalteries, in the praise of God, lest she should seem to Judaize…’
We confess to a fondness for good music of all kinds; and find it no offense to our own feeling of piety or praise to hear the grand and majestic swell of the organ rolling forth, laden with the strains of our sacred music; yet like Paul with respect to meats, I would rather never hear one again, than to have them interfering with the free, full, and grateful, heart felt singing of the whole congregation…
But this does not settle the question, after all --- for there are many things established and right, in the practical affairs of the church in this 19th century, that were not introduced in the days, nor by the authority of the apostles --- questions of mere expediency, that involve neither moral or spiritual principle or teaching…
We have no evidence that in the apostolic days, the disciples owned houses, such as would be called churches, at all…” [Underlining mine – Apollos].
Pendleton’s view was flawed placing IM on the same level as church buildings – an expedient, and therefore acceptable under the right conditions. But in his apologetics for IM Pendelton admits there is “silence” of scripture in regard to IM twice, and comments there is no “authority” for IM as well. Aren’t these the exact same scriptural points you and I have discussed? Therefore your parroting above that “scriptural” arguments against IM came after the split and after 1900 are spurious. Scriptural objection was already well under way! (I wish I could take the time and space to quote J.W. McGarvey for you – 1864.)
crawfish said - I also cannot offer even one scripture to authorize church buildings, songbooks, song leaders or even crackers for the Lord's supper. What I can do is make a logical leap using the scripture indirectly to know that they are not displeasing to God.
This is almost the same flawed apologetic that Pendleton offered in 1864. You continue to argue “Because we already use items for which there is no authority, we can continue to do so and add one more – that is, IM.” No appeal to authority here, is there?
Expedients used in fulfilling a command must be authorized and edify – 1Cor. 6:12, 10:23. IM is not “lawful” (no authority). IM changes the command (type of music). This is specifically why IM can be “separated” “from the other things that are not expicitly authorized”, but are authorized, none-the-less,generically.
“Logical leaps” are fine as long as they are “rooted” in scripture (faith) and not upon human reasoning (rationalizing). Herein is your greatest logical flaw.
Last edited by Apollos1; 23rd February 2008 at 03:50 PM.
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25th February 2008, 08:48 PM
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Reps: 817,740 (power: 824) | | | I'm not sure I even belong in this particular forum anymore. I find myself pulling farther and farther away from the teachings of the RM and even questioning if it is so necessary try to restore the NT church. After all, where is the command to make sure that all NT practices were precisely followed? While I appreciate the spirit and intention of the movement, I've really questioned how necessary it is to try to emulate the NT Church. I've also seen a huge failure on the part of the modern day churches to truly practice in the heart and in the manner that the NT church operated.
You want to attract more to this forum? I doubt that you ever will, until the sectarian points of view are minimalized.
While I believe the people on this forum are good, sincere and well-intentioned people, it seems that once a hot-button issue is hit, there is never a way to understand or address the beliefs of the opposite point of view, except to get into a "proof-texting" war that only goes back and forth. While debate and correction has its place, I myself have grown so weary of the debates that I often do not post here anymore. For me, it comes down to a matter of how well my time is spent here and I don't always think it has been spent well in the past.
God was so awesome in how he extended his grace to us. I don't think he sent his son to die so that we could try to "win" the debates, make a better point than another individual or pull up more scripture to "prove" our belief is correct or trump another's post with "the correct interpretation" of scripture....
Perhaps instead of a forum called the Restoration Movement, there should be a sub-fourm for non-IM churches of Christ, then another sub-forum for everyone else....instrumental coc's, christian church and doc.
Maybe then there really could be divisive unity.
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25th February 2008, 08:58 PM
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Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,846) | | Originally Posted by cremi I'm not sure I even belong in this particular forum anymore. I find myself pulling farther and farther away from the teachings of the RM and even questioning if it is so necessary try to restore the NT church. After all, where is the command to make sure that all NT practices were precisely followed? While I appreciate the spirit and intention of the movement, I've really questioned how necessary it is to try to emulate the NT Church. I've also seen a huge failure on the part of the modern day churches to truly practice in the heart and in the manner that the NT church operated.
You want to attract more to this forum? I doubt that you ever will, until the sectarian points of view are minimalized.
While I believe the people on this forum are good, sincere and well-intentioned people, it seems that once a hot-button issue is hit, there is never a way to understand or address the beliefs of the opposite point of view, except to get into a "proof-texting" war that only goes back and forth. While debate and correction has its place, I myself have grown so weary of the debates that I often do not post here anymore. For me, it comes down to a matter of how well my time is spent here and I don't always think it has been spent well in the past.
God was so awesome in how he extended his grace to us. I don't think he sent his son to die so that we could try to "win" the debates, make a better point than another individual or pull up more scripture to "prove" our belief is correct or trump another's post with "the correct interpretation" of scripture....
Perhaps instead of a forum called the Restoration Movement, there should be a sub-fourm for non-IM churches of Christ, then another sub-forum for everyone else....instrumental coc's, christian church and doc.
Maybe then there really could be divisive unity. Words of wisdom from a pure heart. Thanks Cremi!
In some respects that IS all we've "restored" - I Cor 1 and "divisive unity." It is my prayer those of us yet here in this forum can "do better" in our fellowship, in our encouragement and edification of one another, in our teaching, in our faith, in our spreading of the Gospel - right here. We've already demonstrated aptitude in the things you noted. I pray we can move on, agreeing to disagree if necessary along the way, for the larger purpose He has for us.
The old preacher's adage that we not get contentious in our "contending for the faith" - holds much wise admonition for us all.
God bless!! And thanks! Hoping you'll stick around???
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