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Originally Posted by Robbie_James_Francis
No, it doesn't. It's asks a jury to alter punishment based on motivation, which is already done.
No, it asks a jury to accept the motive, which is one of the legs of a three-legged stool used to establish guilt: Motive, method, and opportunity. Without motive there is no punishment, because it is required to establish guilt.
Originally Posted by Robbie_James_Francis
OK, so emotion leads to intent, and intent leads to the action. It's OK to punish for action and intention, but not emotion. I completely agree. But you are misrepresenting the issue when it comes to hate crime legislation. No-one can be punished for hating a group of people, and no one is advocating that. But if that emotion leads to a certain intent that intent can legitimately alter the punishment.
That's the motive establishing one of the three legs. Motive is proof of guilt of the crime, not the crime itself.
Originally Posted by Robbie_James_Francis
No, you won't. If you attack him because he's a Muslim, then yes. But not if you just don't like him as an individual.
That's my point exactly! It isn't illegal for me to hate him because he is Muslim, it is illegal to beat him up. How can you make it "more illegal" to beat him up because I hate him? That is thought control.
Originally Posted by Robbie_James_Francis
And you're assuming that the additional punishment for a crime being a hate crime is going to be bigger than the addition for premeditation. Not only is what you're saying inaccurate, where it is accurate it's a complete caricature.
If that's how you have to justify supporting "hate crime" legislation, not much I can do to change your mind. The sole purpose of the "hate crime" rider is to punish more severely. Otherwise it serves no purpose whatsoever.
Originally Posted by Robbie_James_Francis
Ah yes, a snide remark about 'political correctness'...the perfect way to end any strawman argument.
It is the only reason "hate crime" legislation is being enacted across the country. "Political correctness" is a desire to control thought, and 'hate crime" legislation is making law enforcement the "thought police." That's the ugly truth, like it or not.
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Face it Polycarp -- some people just have no compassion. And seem quite proud of that fact.
Maybe so, but Yeshua was the most compassionate person, maybe ever and he wouldn't tolerate a homosexual lifestyle or any way of life antagonistic to his message nor the biblical message that he proclaimed.
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Maybe so, but Yeshua was the most compassionate person, maybe ever and he wouldn't tolerate a homosexual lifestyle or any way of life antagonistic to his message nor the biblical message that he proclaimed.
True, but do you see him screaming that homosexuality is an abomination that destroys lives or would He have found a more loving way to get His point across? (think about the woman caught in adultery and how he dealt with her)
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He rescued me because He delighted in me (Ps18:19)
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Originally Posted by Celticflower
True, but do you see him screaming that homosexuality is an abomination that destroys lives or would He have found a more loving way to get His point across? (think about the woman caught in adultery and how he dealt with her)
Exactly. While we carry Christ's message against sin and disobedience, the message must be couched in His love to be effective.
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For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ ... (II Corinthians 10:3-5)
The thread discussion is not and I repeat is not the morality of homosexuality. Please stay on topic.
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True, but do you see him screaming that homosexuality is an abomination that destroys lives or would He have found a more loving way to get His point across? (think about the woman caught in adultery and how he dealt with her)
I'm sure he bellowed and shrieked once in a while, as did all of the prophets, but I agree that his way is the optimal way.
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Maybe so, but Yeshua was the most compassionate person, maybe ever and he wouldn't tolerate a homosexual lifestyle or any way of life antagonistic to his message nor the biblical message that he proclaimed.
No, it asks a jury to accept the motive, which is one of the legs of a three-legged stool used to establish guilt: Motive, method, and opportunity. Without motive there is no punishment, because it is required to establish guilt.That's the motive establishing one of the three legs. Motive is proof of guilt of the crime, not the crime itself.
To this point we agree.
Originally Posted by IisJustMe
That's my point exactly! It isn't illegal for me to hate him because he is Muslim, it is illegal to beat him up. How can you make it "more illegal" to beat him up because I hate him? That is thought control.
No, this is where you seem to insist on inserting your own agenda. Again, if you hate the man who sleeps with your wife and plot to kill him, then your sentence will be different than if you had killed him as a crime of passion. This we have agreed on, things change because of the emotions, which is shown as motive.
If you kill a Muslim because he has a lot of money on him, that is not a hate crime. If you kill a Muslim because you hate Muslims and want to teach those blankety blank no good people a lesson, then it becomes a hate crime. Again, it has everything to do with motive.
This is also the same with terrorist laws. If someone kills a number of people, perhaps bombs a building, because there is a person or a group of people he wants revenge on, then it is not terrorism. If the person hates the US and wants to teach the US a lesson and so bombs a building, that is terrorism. Per your logic, we should not have terrorism laws because they are "thought control".
Originally Posted by IisJustMe
If that's how you have to justify supporting "hate crime" legislation, not much I can do to change your mind.
And you appear to be so committed to your point of view that you do not listen to others who explain why hate crimes punish motive.
Originally Posted by IisJustMe
The sole purpose of the "hate crime" rider is to punish more severely. Otherwise it serves no purpose whatsoever.It is the only reason "hate crime" legislation is being enacted across the country. "Political correctness" is a desire to control thought, and 'hate crime" legislation is making law enforcement the "thought police." That's the ugly truth, like it or not.
No, the purpose of hate crime laws are because it is found that some crimes terrorize a group of people -- they are terrorist acts committed against a group. This has been true since the KKK burned crosses on peoples lawns, they were designed to send a message that blacks must stay in their place and that whites shouldn't consort with blacks.
There have been cases of Christian churches being burned recently, something that struck terror in Christians in the region. This would be a hate crime if the persons motive was because he hated Christians.
That is the truth, whether you choose to see it or not.
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