What's the difference between Charismatic, Pentecostal and Word of Faith?

victoryword · #21 12th November 2003, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Leviathan

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In her book or booklet "The Most Important decision you will ever make"(1991) PG. 37

"There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth that I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your hear that Jesus took you place in hell".

I believe this is out of print now or has been changed.

Now if it is out of print or has been changed, why is it being promoted as a quintessential Word-Faith doctrine? Again, will you not even admit that from the proof I have given you that what "Joyce" said (and more than likely changed later because she certainly does not promote such a view now) is not applied accross the board? Should you continue to accuse the whole Faith Movement of an incorrect teaching simply because of what one person said? I mean, I notice for example how you remain totally silent on the Hagin quote.

Yes, many in the WoF teach that Jesus was our substitute in hell but outside of the quote that you give, none of them have ever taught that belief in this is necessary for salvation. If you ask me, I personally do not believe that holding to this or rejection of this has anything to do with a person's salvation. Romans 10:9, 10 tell me what I am required to believe in order to be saved. I never could understand why both proponents and opponents of WoF make such a big issue out of this.

4GivnGrrl · #22 12th November 2003, 11:44 PM

Dear Brothers and Sistahs;
I must say that I have seen & heard a lot of the same things that Levi has, re: "WOF". It pains me to hear pl in a church telling new believers to "Tell God what you want", and of course there's the God-as-a-vending-machine line of teaching.
The ppl I have known, personally, that were true WOF-ers, were very nice, and sincere. THey were sincerely WRONG. I can't keep from thinking of the verses that talk about the last days when ppl will gather around them teachers who will tell them what their "itching ears" want to hear. And also, the ones about ppl using religion as a means to wealth.
Puh-lease. God help us all.
Levi--- Stand strong, Brother!

Lottedah · #23 12th November 2003, 11:50 PM

Ahh that sounds fair. Yes the cross was sufficient but I grew up watching those teachers and I have never heard come of those things. I believe sickness can be natural or demons or result of a sin.

Bayhawks83 · #24 13th November 2003, 03:43 AM

i was wondering the same thing, whats the difference between pentecostal and charismatic? i wonder what the answer is.

i read charismatics believe in clapping of hands and raising hands in worship service, so i guess im charismatic. and my mom believes in speaking in tongues so i guess shes pentecostal and not just charismatic.

Duggie · #25 13th November 2003, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by 4GivnGrrl

Dear Brothers and Sistahs;
I must say that I have seen & heard a lot of the same things that Levi has, re: "WOF". It pains me to hear pl in a church telling new believers to "Tell God what you want", and of course there's the God-as-a-vending-machine line of teaching.
The ppl I have known, personally, that were true WOF-ers, were very nice, and sincere. THey were sincerely WRONG. I can't keep from thinking of the verses that talk about the last days when ppl will gather around them teachers who will tell them what their "itching ears" want to hear. And also, the ones about ppl using religion as a means to wealth.
Puh-lease. God help us all.
Levi--- Stand strong, Brother!

I hear you, but I have to take issue with this false notion that people who are WoF are a)sincerely wrong and b)using relegion as a means to get wealth. Let me just address point A first: I think it's a little patronizing to assume that those who are true WoF-ers are wrong. In what respect are they wrong? Speaking as somebody who used to attack WoF, judge certain teachers and try to persuade friends to avoid these WoF people, I am starting to see things from a competely different perspective. Why should I as a child of God question God's promises over my life? When it comes to healing, prosperity, peace and an abundant life. Mathew 7:11 says "If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him. Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us. 3 John 2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers. The scriptures don't lie and there are so many that illustrate the fact that through faith in Christ our heavenly Father WILL bless us in all areas of our lives. For me this isn't even about WoF. I'm not trying to defend WoF. This is about the promises God has given us in His Word. Shall I reject these promises and allow the cares of this world and sickness and poverty the freedom to reign in my life? absolutely not!!! I can't speak for the WoF people you know, but those I know are living life according to God's promises and walking in peace and prosperity. Both spiritually and physically. When it comes to wealth, again we have to see what His Word tells us. Deut 8:18 And you shall remember the Lord your God, for it is He who gives you the power to get wealth, that He may establish His Covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day. Phil 4:19 My God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. We can't mock God, those who are using "religion" to gain financially are not wise and are obviously completely missing the whole point. It's interesting to note that most, if not all, of these WoF ministries started out with only a few members, very little money and experienced the same trials, hardships and struggles most of us have had at some point in our lifetime. I end with a verse God has really laid upon my heart recently:Mathew 7:1-2 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with that judgement you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

victoryword · #26 13th November 2003, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Duggie

I hear you, but I have to take issue with this false notion that people who are WoF are a)sincerely wrong and b)using relegion as a means to get wealth. Let me just address point A first: I think it's a little patronizing to assume that those who are true WoF-ers are wrong. In what respect are they wrong? Speaking as somebody who used to attack WoF, judge certain teachers and try to persuade friends to avoid these WoF people, I am starting to see things from a competely different perspective. Why should I as a child of God question God's promises over my life? When it comes to healing, prosperity, peace and an abundant life. Mathew 7:11 says "If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him. Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us. 3 John 2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers. The scriptures don't lie and there are so many that illustrate the fact that through faith in Christ our heavenly Father WILL bless us in all areas of our lives. For me this isn't even about WoF. I'm not trying to defend WoF. This is about the promises God has given us in His Word. Shall I reject these promises and allow the cares of this world and sickness and poverty the freedom to reign in my life? absolutely not!!! I can't speak for the WoF people you know, but those I know are living life according to God's promises and walking in peace and prosperity. Both spiritually and physically. When it comes to wealth, again we have to see what His Word tells us. Deut 8:18 And you shall remember the Lord your God, for it is He who gives you the power to get wealth, that He may establish His Covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day. Phil 4:19 My God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. We can't mock God, those who are using "religion" to gain financially are not wise and are obviously completely missing the whole point. It's interesting to note that most, if not all, of these WoF ministries started out with only a few members, very little money and experienced the same trials, hardships and struggles most of us have had at some point in our lifetime. I end with a verse God has really laid upon my heart recently:Mathew 7:1-2 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with that judgement you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Duggie

I really enjoyed reading this post, but most especially the part I bolded. It is NOT about Word-Faith, Charismatic, Evangelical or whatever. It's about "What saith the Lord."

Many times on internet forums people want to toss away Scripture because a certain teaching is advocated by their favorite group to hate. I have found it ridiculous. Instead of debating the Scriptural validity of a doctrine, people often want to bring accusations and quotes (often MISQUOTES) by Faith Teachers and then say, "defend this."

I am coming to find that many opponents of the Faith MOvement really cannot engage in a SCRIPTURAL debate. I am often disappointed by this because I like studying the Word and having my beliefs challenged by the Word vice someone's traditional doctrinal perspective that often has no Biblical basis.

If a Word-Faith teacher can be proven wrong by the Word then so be it. He/she is wrong. However, my opponent should be ready when I take apart the beliefs of his/her admired Bible teacher. After all, fair is fair.

No particular denomination or movement has all of the answer or has it altogether. When we begin to recognize that then we will do more to learn from each other than we are doing in attacking each other. Correction is great when done in love and without the superior attitude that says, "My doctrine is God approved. Yours is demonic."

victoryword · #27 13th November 2003, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by 4GivnGrrl

Dear Brothers and Sistahs;
I must say that I have seen & heard a lot of the same things that Levi has, re: "WOF". It pains me to hear pl in a church telling new believers to "Tell God what you want", and of course there's the God-as-a-vending-machine line of teaching.
The ppl I have known, personally, that were true WOF-ers, were very nice, and sincere. THey were sincerely WRONG. I can't keep from thinking of the verses that talk about the last days when ppl will gather around them teachers who will tell them what their "itching ears" want to hear. And also, the ones about ppl using religion as a means to wealth.
Puh-lease. God help us all.
Levi--- Stand strong, Brother!

My dear sister

Posts like yours really disappoint me. Not because you disagree with any of my beliefs, but because you and others will continue to make such derisive statements without ever addressing the proof that I have given that countered Levi's accusations.

For example, Levi made a blanket statement that the Faith Teachers teach that the cross was not enough. The implication seemed to be that Faith Teachers deny the efficacy of the cross and blood. I provided him a quote from a major faith teacher countering that and a link to more quotes. Furthermore, I provided Scriptural evidence that redemption goes beyond the cross. There was a need for a ressurection.

However, none of this was addressed. Levi totally ignored it and did not even acknowledge that perhaps he may have misjudged a whole movement. Then you also come here and write your post encouraging him to stand strong, also ignoring the fact that he has been proven wrong. YOu then bring further accusations against us by claiming that we are heaping to ourselves teachers due to our itching ears.

Does integrity and Biblical truth mean anything to those opposed to the Faith Movement or is all of that simply set aside due to some mandate to expose what people like you claim to be erroneous teaching? Shouldn't erroneous teaching be exposed by the light of God's Word rather than accusations that cannot be proven?

In my personal opinion those who read anti-WoF books and who are frequenting anti-WoF websites have itching ears for gossip - but that's only my opinion. Nothing that I can prove. Yet, it would be easy for me to use that same Scripture you quoted against YOU.

If I am wrong then refute the evidence I have given you and show me where my beliefs do not line up with the Word. But also be prepared to have your beliefs challenged.

RevKidd · #28 13th November 2003, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by victoryword

Now if it is out of print or has been changed, why is it being promoted as a quintessential Word-Faith doctrine? Again, will you not even admit that from the proof I have given you that what "Joyce" said (and more than likely changed later because she certainly does not promote such a view now) is not applied accross the board? Should you continue to accuse the whole Faith Movement of an incorrect teaching simply because of what one person said? I mean, I notice for example how you remain totally silent on the Hagin quote.

Yes, many in the WoF teach that Jesus was our substitute in hell but outside of the quote that you give, none of them have ever taught that belief in this is necessary for salvation. If you ask me, I personally do not believe that holding to this or rejection of this has anything to do with a person's salvation. Romans 10:9, 10 tell me what I am required to believe in order to be saved. I never could understand why both proponents and opponents of WoF make such a big issue out of this.

Hagan's quote is true, but it doesn't hide the fact that he has supported Christ having to go to hell. That teaching is a part of there [WOF]doctrine whether you like it or not. Bottom Line.

Here are some links to what some of the leaders have said. I have read some of them, some of them I have glanced through.

My question is this. Why don't we here bad things from people like Billy Graham, Josh Mcdowell, Charles Swindoll, Charles Stanley.... But when it comes to the WOF movement, the leaders are always being questioned concerning statments that just have no bearing what-so-ever....

http://www.cephasministry.com/kenneth_hagin.html
http://www.pawcreek.org/kenneth.htm
http://www.equip.org/free/DC755-1.htm
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/...nd/general.htm
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kenneth.htm
http://www.banner.org.uk/wof/wells1.html

SpiritPsalmist · #29 13th November 2003, 11:44 AM

*Mod Hat On*

The bashing of WOF needs to STOP! Discussion of WOF teachings may continue but attacking people is not allowed.

didaskalos · #30 13th November 2003, 11:54 AM

I have been all three of these progressively during my walk. I, like many, started as a Pentecostal. I taught in the Pentecostal Church of God from 78-81. My wife was brought up in the Church of God, and lived with her sister and brother in law who was a COG pastor in ND. She also went to a COG bible college in the North Dakota. (We were married there!)
Some of the teachings of the Pentecostal groups (at that time) included the "second act of grace"... which taught that you had to experience something called "sanctification" before you could receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. This was an experience that supposedly cleansed you and prepared you for the infilling. They also had very strict teachings about personal holiness that involved things like women wearing hats in church, women not cutting their hair, no jewelry, no movies or dancing. Bunches more. This meant Pentecostals of that time (it is not so bad now) held to a very legalistic approach to receiving the Holy Spirit. The "second act of grace" was very problematic, and actually led many to leave the churches and move over to the newly formed Charismatics. Charismatics were less worried about the legalistic requirements preceding the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and in fact taught that you could not overcome the flesh until you received the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the agent of Holiness.

When it comes to tongues, the old time Pentecostals were very much insistent that you speak in tongues. If you did not, then you did not receive. This is the much overworked "initial evidence." This also caused many problems. The Charismatics taught more along the lines that you did not have to speak, but just believe that you received.

Healing was one thing that the Charismatics carried over from the Pentecostals. The old line Pentecostals taught that healing was included in the atonement. That means that Jesus purchased our healing for us just like he purchased our salvation from sin. Many Charismatics have drawn back from this... but the AOG still (the last time I checked) had it in their statement of faith. People who insist that this is some new teaching have not done their homework. We see it in the writings Andrew Murray in the 1800s. By the time of the healing revival in the 40s and 50s, it was standard in every Pentecostal Church.

The Charismatic movement began to become evident as early as the 60s. It included more than just tongues and healings, and was very hot regarding praise and worship. I suppose that praise and worship in the Spirit was the main thrust of the movement at first. It eventually spread out to include the ministry gifts. The "Jesus People" of the early 70s were heavy into the Charismatic, and many today trace the current movement back to that period.

Word Of Faith was initially called "the Faith Movement." It grew up within the Charismatic movement as people began to hunger for the Word. They loved the Spirit, but needed the structure and foundation of the Word of God. If the movement could be summed up in single phrase it would be "the word says it, I believe it, that settles it." Other groups have used this idea in the past, but WOF took the concept and applied it to the individual. The word of God is true for me and my circumstances. When Jesus said we received what we believed and prayed for... he meant it. We are what the Word says we are. God does what the word says He does. Most people trace the movement back to E.W. Kenyon who passed away in 1949 and WOF people consider it another stage in the restoration of the Church as we approach the return of the Lord.

Today the group is more structured than it was 10 years ago, but it is still just a loose gathering of believers with many different flavors and perspectives. Because the movement has not actually defined a set standard, it has caught a lot of flak. The details of which I will describe in the next post.