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20th January 2009, 02:12 PM
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Reps: 18,889,155,825,852,136 (power: 18,889,155,825,866) | | Originally Posted by exquirer  (∫∞ x2|f(x)|2dx)(∫∞ξ2|f(ξ)|2dξ ) ≥ 1/16π2
Engineers can do math too!
You forgot to pigeonhole God into your equation.
__________________
"There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well." -- creation scientist Dr. Todd Wood |
20th January 2009, 03:04 PM
| | Junior Member
 
| | Join Date: 16th October 2007
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Reps: 3,637,421 (power: 3,643) | | Originally Posted by Mallon You forgot to pigeonhole God into your equation.
Actually its not my equation - its the equation that presents the formal proof of the Uncertainty Principle, that limits our ability to know material reality in essence (for when God saw all He made, low it was the Very Good) and of course, we cannot know God in essence.
And God is in the equation, notice the integral is over infinity - He is not Pigeonholed, but rather transcendent.
ex.... |
20th January 2009, 05:34 PM
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| | Join Date: 2nd March 2004 Location: Toronto
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Reps: 15,520,757,636,276,026 (power: 15,520,757,636,298) | | Originally Posted by exquirer Actually its not my equation - its the equation that presents the formal proof of the Uncertainty Principle, that limits our ability to know material reality in essence (for when God saw all He made, low it was the Very Good) and of course, we cannot know God in essence.
And God is in the equation, notice the integral is over infinity - He is not Pigeonholed, but rather transcendent.
ex....
Interestingly, both Kenneth Miller and John Polkinghorne also call on the fact of quantum indeterminacy to point to the fact we can never know creation or the Creator fully. Miller (in Finding Darwin's God) also points out that the DNA molecule through its governance of biology amplifies the physical indeterminacy of the material world into the world of life. This is the fundamental reason mutations are random.
One of the things this means is that history, whether natural or human, cannot be predetermined. So the materialistic determinism of a Daniel Dennett, which might have been a logical position in the framework of Newtonian mechanics, cannot truly be sustained even on a scientific level.
Theologically, the fundamental indeterminacy of material events permits both the freedom of God to create and the freedom of the creature to become.
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"Either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy - and then admit that we just don't wanna do it." Steve Colbert |
20th January 2009, 06:24 PM
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| | Join Date: 17th February 2005 Location: Shah Alam, Selangor
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Reps: 17,659,091,110,512,166 (power: 17,659,091,110,529) | | Originally Posted by exquirer Through the Grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I have a patent on a self-verifying computer language compiler used to automate PWR nuclear power reactor core designs in the United States and globally - and as a result, I know this problem in depth.
In fact, we could write our names in the power distribution of the reactor if we wanted to. It comes from intelligence, not randomness - random processes are very, very weak.
"Hey Dad, why are the lights flickering? I thought you replaced the old tubes months - "
"Shh. Son, it's Morse Code ..." Originally Posted by exquirer The truth is, informational entropy is very, very real - as is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, as are any number of phenomena that fundamentally limit the ability to formulate systems, model etc.....
Do you mean the Shannon entropy of an information source? Because that would mean that you have an improper mental model of evolution. Shannon entropy is a measure (roughly speaking, in transmission theory) of the chances that the signal at the end of a transmission line is identical to the signal that went in at the start. If you're transmitting from a low-entropy source, you don't need a very good channel to ensure that the message is faithfully reproduced at the end; if you're transmitting from a high-entropy source, you need a strong, high-bandwidth channel to get the signal through.
Evolution isn't concerned, however, with indiscriminate fidelity of genome transmission. Evolution doesn't care whether I have the exact same genes as my father; what evolution cares about is whether I can survive and thrive in the environment that my father happens to bequeath to me. More often than not this will involve some modification. Yes, the genome is a very high-entropy source of information, especially when it comes to sexual transmission. (Parents have no idea what their baby will look like before it's born.) But that's okay. We aren't playing Chinese Whispers or Pass The Parcel here; we're playing Let's See If Our Children Can Withstand The Nonsense That Did Us In Better Than We Did.
And that's a whole different ball game.
__________________ And who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars?
- Origen, 215AD [De Principiis 4.1.16]
... to insist that the rising of the sun is figurative while the rising of the Son is literal is also hypocrisy.
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21st January 2009, 01:22 AM
| | Junior Member
| | Join Date: 16th October 2007
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Reps: 3,637,421 (power: 3,643) | | Originally Posted by shernren "Hey Dad, why are the lights flickering? I thought you replaced the old tubes months - "
"Shh. Son, it's Morse Code ..."
..... Yes, the genome is a very high-entropy source of information, especially when it comes to sexual transmission. (Parents have no idea what their baby will look like before it's born.) But that's okay. We aren't playing Chinese Whispers or Pass The Parcel here; we're playing Let's See If Our Children Can Withstand The Nonsense That Did Us In Better Than We Did.
And that's a whole different ball game.
You gene expression changes in the course of minutes - have you seen the studies lately? You literally can formulate - by your will - your gene expression. In fact people are doing it in research studies.
So if you listen to particular music etc.... pray etc... your gene expression will change, and that will be passed down to the next generation. Hence, because we have free will and make choices - that is an exception to natural selection - because now it is a matter of will.
Therefore, an exception has been found in man which in essence disproves the sufficiency of necessity of natural selection - there is free will selection based on a reasoning being's preference (on the high end of the evolutionary scale). Natural selection is no longer causal.
If it is no longer sufficient (for man) or necessary (for man) why should it be sufficient or necessary for any other being in the evolutionary chain? Mechanistically, it isn't sufficient on its own.
Check it out.
So if a theory is neither sufficient or necessary for cause, formally, it is untrue for causal. Now people will argue that evolution isn't causal - and they are right. But if it isn't causal - what is? Oops - back to intelligence intrinsic, simple, compound (God).
ex..... |
21st January 2009, 09:41 AM
|  | Gangster of Four
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| | Join Date: 3rd April 2003
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Reps: 7,487,994,377,694,246 (power: 7,487,994,377,705) | | You gene expression changes in the course of minutes - have you seen the studies lately? You literally can formulate - by your will - your gene expression. In fact people are doing it in research studies.
I just got up from the keyboard, and poured myself an iced tea. Change in gene expression. I normally get a water. But my genes remain exactly the same. So if you listen to particular music etc.... pray etc... your gene expression will change, and that will be passed down to the next generation.
Nope. My kids pray, because I spent time teaching them. But their taste in music...  Therefore, an exception has been found in man which in essence disproves the sufficiency of necessity of natural selection - there is free will selection based on a reasoning being's preference (on the high end of the evolutionary scale). Natural selection is no longer causal.
Last time I tried it, it was. And so far, everyone else is finding the same thing, every time we try it.
You perhaps have a checkable source for this belief? |
23rd January 2009, 11:09 AM
| | Junior Member
| | Join Date: 16th October 2007
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Reps: 3,637,421 (power: 3,643) | | Originally Posted by The Barbarian I just got up from the keyboard, and poured myself an iced tea. Change in gene expression. I normally get a water. But my genes remain exactly the same.
Your genes are exactly the same - but the number and type expressed are different.
Sorry about the checkable sources - you can google as easily as I can. I received a lecture a couple years ago at the research institute where my office is located (We are not part of that institute), and they were doing microarray studies on gene expression.
It was mindblowing stuff.
"Let us create man in our image" is literally true - we are joint heirs of our own creation. We are what we eat - what we listen to ...... truly amazing stuff.
The genes don't change (much?) - but the number of each type expressed do.
Have you ever considered the perfection of the image of God in that in the beginning is our DNA (molecular Word)? Fascinating stuff.
Of course they didn't make any religious connections. People prefer to believe in their own intrinsic scientific superiority.....
You know, there is an ancient hymn with a line, "Oh Lord save thy people, and bless thine inheritance, and to thy faithful people grant victory over the Barbarians...." Sorry - its just amusing how that song pops into my head when I see your Icon!
ex.....
Last edited by exquirer; 23rd January 2009 at 11:15 AM.
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