Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit...who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance. Can you unseal what God has sealed? No.
In His Love
Bob
Exactly, a truly saved person can't become unsaved. But there are fakers, don't you agree?
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"You Christians look after a document containing enough dynamite to blow all civilization to pieces, turn the world upside-down, and bring peace to a battle-torn planet. But you treat it as though it is nothing more than a piece of good literature." -Gandhi
But still, the difference in interpretations is because of sinfulness. We each have our own opinions that we decide must be the truth, when in reality God says something different.
Well, we may have tripped into the truth once in a while. And I'm not sure I would say that a misinterpretation of scripture is sinful; not being open to rebuke and edification brings about sin. And dismissing truth when presented and going forward in a misinterpretation would be sinful, just not the misinterpretation itself. Even if no one else is around to correct, the Holy Spirit will.
Originally Posted by The Cheat
Denominations aren't biblical, as far as I'm able to tell.
I can't disagree. It would be great if we were all just Christians, wouldn't it. But we do have doctrinal differences -- even such wonderful friends as you and I; so where does that put us?
Originally Posted by The Cheat
Also, I don't see much difference between a denomination and a movement. Both are trying to seperate themselves, are they not?
Seperate, no. Define, yes. There ARE doctrinal differences. As soon as you join with me in my beliefs then we won't need the names, now will we? But until we all get it straight we identify our beliefs by naming ourselves. For instance, you are non-denominational. As such I now know that you are not Baptist or Lutheran or Assembly of God. This doesn't mean that you don't share any beliefs with them, but that there are things that you don't quite believe in common. Either that or you don't want to submit to authority. Bottom line, don't despise denomination simply because they built a fence around themselves and said "we believe this way"; rather, work on taking the fence down so that there is no difference between you and the denomination. Our focus should be on Christ.
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Wait - I think you can unseal what God has sealed. It's a sin, but... Adam did it, didn't he? I have as much freedom of will as he did.
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Wow...that conversation really took off. At least it's about something substantial as oppose to the millions of other debates we've had in here....
Honestly
Originally Posted by Cheat
The Greek word for "saved" here means "safe, to save, to deliver, to protect, to heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole". It's talking about salvation, because it's the same word used elsewhere when salvation is being talked about.
Does the word save always imply that it is from sin? Then how can you say this means salvation if the verse says nothing of salvation?
Originally Posted by Cheat
Not so fast. The first word "believeth" in Greek means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): believe, commit (to trust), put in trust with".
The second word "believeth" in Greek means "to be unbelieving, disbelieve, disobey- believe not".
It's still saying that faith in Christ is what saved (check out Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, that's where I look up the meaning of the words).
Ah yes, the Strongs. I use it as well.
Alright, I will this specific verse in the argument above. If this word save always means salvation, what about the guy on the deathbed you were talking about? He would need to get baptized.
Originally Posted by Cheat
It's the whole book, my friend! One verse hardly ever covers it. Read the book, it's short enough to be read in a short amount of time.
Will do.
James 1:27.
Ah, wrong type of religion. Forgive me for not making it clear. I was referring to a set of laws or rules that we must follow.
Yes, but I don't feel like dragging people's feet INTO the aisle to step on.
Why not?
Originally Posted by Cheat
Right: opinions. Instead of going to God to find out what truth is, we try to decide it for ourselves.
Ah, but we went through that... the world healing in Hebrew and Greek isn't referring to a physical health. Both words mean to "make whole". The passages are also talking about salvation ("who Himself bore our sins").
He took all of the Curse, bro. Everything that is caused by the Curse has been done away with. We have the authority to take the healing, prosperity, etc. He has given us, if we want it.
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Well, we may have tripped into the truth once in a while. And I'm not sure I would say that a misinterpretation of scripture is sinful; not being open to rebuke and edification brings about sin. And dismissing truth when presented and going forward in a misinterpretation would be sinful, just not the misinterpretation itself. Even if no one else is around to correct, the Holy Spirit will.
Misunderstanding something isn't a sin, you're right, but we have the misinterpretations as a result of our sin. We've basically held our views over God's, and that's how we got to where we are today.
Originally Posted by ABM
I can't disagree. It would be great if we were all just Christians, wouldn't it. But we do have doctrinal differences -- even such wonderful friends as you and I; so where does that put us?
Biblically, it would mean that instead of identifying ourselves as different "kinds of Christians", we both search the Scriptures to see who is right. The Bible will make it obvious. We're all in this together, after all.
Once again, the reason we have so many denominations and movements is because people have their own opinions that they regard as truth.
Originally Posted by ABM
Seperate, no. Define, yes. There ARE doctrinal differences. As soon as you join with me in my beliefs then we won't need the names, now will we? But until we all get it straight we identify our beliefs by naming ourselves.
If that's true, then you aren't a Christian, you're a Word-of-Faither (for clarity, I don't believe you aren't a Christian, that's an illustration). Why? Because we're supposed to identify ourselves as of Christ-- we're of Christ or we're not, j'know?
What we've got to do is cast aside every thought that we know things that comes into our mind and go find out, without trying to squeeze our view into the Bible. That's how to find out what the truth is.
Originally Posted by ABM
For instance, you are non-denominational.
No, no no no. I'm not with that movement. I'm a Christian. Not a certain type, not a certain way, not a certain recipe-- just a Christian.
Originally Posted by ABM
As such I now know that you are not Baptist or Lutheran or Assembly of God. This doesn't mean that you don't share any beliefs with them, but that there are things that you don't quite believe in common. Either that or you don't want to submit to authority. Bottom line, don't despise denomination simply because they built a fence around themselves and said "we believe this way"; rather, work on taking the fence down so that there is no difference between you and the denomination. Our focus should be on Christ
Very true, but that's not what denominations do.
Denomination say, "This is what we believe to be truth, so you are wrong in believing otherwise." However, what we think about what God says doesn't matter, what He says is what is truth.
I do submit to authority-- Christ's.
Here's the thing: "they were first called Christians in Antioch". They were not called Baptists, or Lutherans, or Methodists, or Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or Messianic Jews. They were called Christians! Of-Christs! That's what they were! And that's what I am. I don't follow earthly doctrines, I follow God's true, one-of-a-kind, authoritative theology, which He plainly laid down for mankind in the Bible.
God laid down exactly what a Christian is in the Bible as well. Christ stated plainly who He is, and so does the rest of the Bible. The Holy Spirit revealed Himself, the Father revealed Himself... there's no question about who God is or what He expects. There's just all these different people that say, "Oh, this simply means..." when it says something completely different.
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"You Christians look after a document containing enough dynamite to blow all civilization to pieces, turn the world upside-down, and bring peace to a battle-torn planet. But you treat it as though it is nothing more than a piece of good literature." -Gandhi
They were first called Christians in Antioch... before that, they were Nazarenes. Does that mean we have to call ourselves Nazarenes? That's one of those denominations now!
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Does the word save always imply that it is from sin? Then how can you say this means salvation if the verse says nothing of salvation?
As far as I am aware, this Greek word and this Hebrew word is always used in reference to salvation, yes (and I've looked, but if you can find a place where it isn't, I'll recant... but Greek and Hebrew are pretty darn specific, with for instance a different word for each kind of saving).
Originally Posted by RM
Ah yes, the Strongs. I use it as well.
You then, will also get the same answers as I am getting.
Originally Posted by RM
Alright, I will this specific verse in the argument above. If this word save always means salvation, what about the guy on the deathbed you were talking about? He would need to get baptized.
I thought this might come up.
Notice it says, "believes and is baptized will be saved", but does NOT say "he who does not believe AND BE BAPTIZED is condemned already". It mentions nothing about baptism in the second part of the verse.
I recall the time where Jesus spoke of being baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 1:5. What does this mean? Well, firstly, we are saved by grace through faith, not being dunked in a church tank. Physical baptism is an outward sign of "the new man". So since we are saved by grace alone, the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the literal change that takes place-- it is what makes us "the new man"! Jesus promised this.
So that is what it means to be baptized... to be born again (made "the new man")!
Originally Posted by RM
Ah, wrong type of religion. Forgive me for not making it clear. I was referring to a set of laws or rules that we must follow.
Uh... 1st John 5:3.
Originally Posted by RM
Why not?
My Mommy says so.
Originally Posted by RM
He took all of the Curse, bro. Everything that is caused by the Curse has been done away with. We have the authority to take the healing, prosperity, etc. He has given us, if we want it.
Once again, not until New Heaven and New Earth is made. Revelation 21 says that then there is no more curse.
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"You Christians look after a document containing enough dynamite to blow all civilization to pieces, turn the world upside-down, and bring peace to a battle-torn planet. But you treat it as though it is nothing more than a piece of good literature." -Gandhi
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