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Oh, no. At least Napajohn's answers are merely wrong, USAF doesn't answer at all.
Oh, no NapaJohn has sidestepped several that would put him in a literalist bind.
__________________
None of the gods love wisdom or desire to become wise, for they are wise already -- nor if someone else is wise, do they love wisdom. Neither do the ignorant love wisdom or desire to become wise; for this is the grievous thing about ignorance, that those who are neither good nor beautiful nor sensible think they are good enough, and do not desire that which they do not think they are lacking.
Accusations, hatred, kill the messenger....it is so illuminating to see
how truth brings out the best in people. Why such weeping and gnashing
of teeth, at least you are finding out now? But anyway...hey, at least I
got one comment, one response to my challenge, and the response is
"mitochondrial DNA."
Ahhhh yes....mitochondria! My favorite subject!!! For those of you that
don't know what a mitochondria is I found the best shortest easy to read
article from St Albans in New Zealand:
"No machinery can work without fuel. The power stations of the cell are
the mitochondria, which provide the energy for every organelle in the
cell, and indeed for all life and movement in every kind of organism.
The mitochondria supply fuel in two grades: low and high octane, or ADP
and ATP respectively (for adenosine diphosphate and adenosine
triphosphate). The supply of these grades is controlled by control
switches, to save the ribosome machinery from burning out if they ran on
high octane all the time. Each mitochondrion is as complex as an
independently-operated and fully-automated oil refinery. It has its own
DNA, separate from the cell's master DNA already mentioned. To produce
fuel, the raw materials have to go through six successive refining
processes.
Mitochondria are also difficult to account for, because of their
dependence on their fuel supply. As items of cell machinery, they need
fuel to run on. But how did they get their first fuel before they had
manufactured a supply? Professor Malcolm Dixon, former head of the
Enzyme Biology Department at Cambridge University, in one of the
earliest studies of this problem, said that 'It is like trying to build
a machine-tool factory without machine tools to build it.' (quoted by
Victor Pearce, Who Was Adam? [Exeter, Paternoster, 1969], p. 116).
Because of this circularity, like enzymes, there is no way of accounting
for their existence without a Creator. Mitochondria join the other
problematic units of intracellular complexity in resisting the
materialist's endeavor to account for the appearance of life by solely
naturalistic means."
Oh the problems of a closed-mind....thank God we have true scientists
today who are open-minded to all possibilities of the Origin of Life.
Now, on to mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondria has it's own DNA which are
only inherited from the mother. In 1987, which was corroborated in 1991
and 1996, evolutionists compared the changes in mitochondria in a
Neanderthal, from it's DNA, with the rate a mitochondria changes and
discovered evolution is wrong. Everything you were taught in school is
wrong and now we must start over. Instead of gradual evolutionary
changes over millions of years, these scientists have discovered that
the origin of humanity is only 170,000 years and began in Africa as a
sudden event.
Now that is interesting!
But please don't just believe MY OWN WORDS, let's hear from one of THEIR
OWN WORDS again:
But if we shared common ancestry in Africa only 200,000 years ago, then
these older Homo erectus populations in Europe and Asia are not
ancestral to Homo sapiens, and we evolved from a later branching event
in Africa. Our spread throughout the world was therefore more recent,
and our rise to dominance more tenuous and less predictable. In short,
we become the results of a fortunate, singular historical event in
Africa--the branching of an ancestral population into a twig that made
us all. We are a thing, a singular event, an item of history--not the
predictable result of necessary improvement. I have labeled these more
humbling views as entity theories of human origin.
Eve and Her Tree
By Stephen Jay Gould
DISCOVER Vol. 13 No. 07 | July 1992 | Anthropology
Oh well....so much for the proof for evolution again!!!!!!
Mitochondrial DNA is an exciting new field of study and as it develops
along with the rest of open-minded science we will find a closer
relationship between it and the biblical truths as revealed in the
Bible. Of course this has been the case in all fields of study,
archeology, history, literature, politics, nature, etc.etc. All we keep
discovering is God was right!
Anymore PROOFS? LOL
Your favorite subject eh? If it is your favorite subject why did you run off to "cut" and now have returned to "paste"? You asked our own words yet you paste from a creationists site and bad info, at that. What is your Biology background, may I ask? You paste these long diatribes, at least do yourself the favor and make sure it is valid. If it was your favorite subject you would be appalled by this.
As far as people's attitude when the "truth" is presented -That is the nonsense that is regurgitated and handed down during Wednesday night Bibxle study. It is the soothing answer why people get irritated. Not because of ignorance or hubris but because they are hearing "the truth". LOL-so you have NOTHING original to say or that are your own thoughts then, on anything, science or religion...LOL
So if a person of another faith started preaching THEIR faith to you and you told them you did not want to hear it, should they assume you were running from the truth???? Just because it is the religion YOU belong to does not make it true or valid. My irritation with you has NOTHING to do with your faith or belief in God, I myself believe in a higher power. My irritation is how you argue from authority on topics you know nothing about!! I started addressing your post on Mit. DNA and 1/4 of the way through I just started shaking my head. This is silly, it is like arguing how many brick the wolf blew down in the 3 little pigs residence. If you want to discuss REAL Biology, which I have a degree in, I will be delighted. Other than that I do not have time for you twisting what is to fit with what you want it to be. Shouldn't you study the real thing before you go and try changing it into fanatasy material. Your favorite subject-LOL, if you knew anything about it you would die from embarrassment to post the Garbage you just did.
__________________
None of the gods love wisdom or desire to become wise, for they are wise already -- nor if someone else is wise, do they love wisdom. Neither do the ignorant love wisdom or desire to become wise; for this is the grievous thing about ignorance, that those who are neither good nor beautiful nor sensible think they are good enough, and do not desire that which they do not think they are lacking.
1. Mitochondria power the cell
2. The Mitochondria get their fuel from the cell they power.
The error is that the cell gets its fuel from the host. Before anything happens inside the cell it first takes a 6 carbon Glucose molecule and braks it down into two 3 carbon pyruvate molecules (I am going to truncate this because it would take pages) the the to 3 carbon pyruvates at this time NADH and ATP are formed. THEN they (The degrade Glucose) enter the Mit and form Acetyl CoA and then enter the Krebs cycle which is what most people are familair with. Basically the Mit.is using sugars to make ATP (Adenosine tri-phosphate) and that is what powers our body. The fact they have their own DNA shows theyonce existed outside the cell alone. Plants also have Mitochondria PLUS Chloroplast which is believed to have evolved the same way. In plants however ADP (Adenosine DI Phosphate) is produced. This is more involved and the chloroplast runs a Calvin Cyle and performs light and dark reactions using the Photons of the sun. So to say it using energy from the cel is not completely correct. Initially this "sugars" came from consuming food for energy to be used by the Mit. to produce ATP (in animals) ADP (in plants).
__________________
None of the gods love wisdom or desire to become wise, for they are wise already -- nor if someone else is wise, do they love wisdom. Neither do the ignorant love wisdom or desire to become wise; for this is the grievous thing about ignorance, that those who are neither good nor beautiful nor sensible think they are good enough, and do not desire that which they do not think they are lacking.
Plato, Symposium 203E-204A
Last edited by LorentzHA; 29th November 2003 at 02:47 PM.
Reason: edited for clarity
The circularity argument I think runs like this: (correct me if I am wrong)
1. Mitochondria power the cell
2. The Mitochondria get their fuel from the cell they power.
This IC argument is flawed because cells were not always like this. Mitochondria are not cell organelles in the conventional sense, they are symbiotic bacteria that live inside cells.
Originally all cells were self sufficient, and mitochondria were just another prokaryote. Then a mitochondrion was absorbed by a cell, but was not digested. (possibly due to a lucky chance of surface proteins giving the appearance of it being a native organelle)
The while the cell could produce energy independently, the mitochondrion could do it more effectively. And the mitochondrion while inside the cell was protected from predation. So the two formed a symbiotic relationship, with the cell providing fuel and the mitochondrion processing it, and benefiting from the cells defences against attack.
As the mitochondria lived and divided inside the cell, it's descendants were passed into the cells 'children'. The symbiotic relationship continued. As all its other needs were supplied by the host cell the mitochondria evolved to be more and more specialised in energy production, as a cell with more productive mitochondria has more energy and thus more chance of surviving to reproduce.
Don't forget all the prokaryotic intracellular pathogens The fact that these exist give good evidence that a symbiotic relationship would have easily come about...the Mitochondria allowed the host cell to "worry" about other things instead of energy production...
__________________ Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole." Thomas 34
"On blind faith they place reliance, what they need more of is science"- MC Hawking
(shaking head) this is and I am sad to say, an American Phenomena. A movement started about 15 years ago in our schools, where teachers began tell kids EVERYONE is equal and anyone can do anything. This is true in some respects but you still have to put in the time and work. And I will add that not everyone has the ability to do anything they want. You have to work within your own abilites. I saw a short program on local Television about this. It has been grossly misinterpreted in such a manner that people not think they are equal and have the same level of knowledge as their Dr., Architect, Dentist, etc. The program showed how people will go buy these home drafting programs thinking they too can design a building. They lay out a floor plan and then become combative when the Architect tells them it simply cannot work in 3 dimensional space. I am seeing similar behavior here with a few creationists. They are told something, then they dissapear from the top of the board come back in 1.5 hours -declaring THIS is there favorite topic and they are darn glad you asked! They have been surfing the Web and think by scanning articles for an hour or two they are just as competant to speak on ANY subject whether in be Physics, Biology, Chemistry, etc. and argue with people who have studied it LONGER than they have been alive and have degrees in it. My friend already has her Medical Lic. and is practicing and she was remarking on how people come in to be seen for a problem, she makes a diagnosis, goes to write a script and the patients says, "No I do not think it is that because last night I was on the intenet and I think it is this." She then politely tells them, "No, it is not that." Then they even argue about her choice of drug. (sad, sad, sad) Yep everyone is equal! Who needs education when you have the internet and some attitude, right? LOL
__________________
None of the gods love wisdom or desire to become wise, for they are wise already -- nor if someone else is wise, do they love wisdom. Neither do the ignorant love wisdom or desire to become wise; for this is the grievous thing about ignorance, that those who are neither good nor beautiful nor sensible think they are good enough, and do not desire that which they do not think they are lacking.
Plato, Symposium 203E-204A
Last edited by LorentzHA; 29th November 2003 at 03:11 PM.
I also have got into science arguments on here by people who chime in and say they did a physics or engineering degree. I must admit I think some of them are not telling the truth.
The problem even with a degree is it doen't mean that much if you don't work in the field. I see on here a couple of pilots who claim this but last time I checked physics is not a requirement of flying a plane.
Especially in the United States a degree often means you only did some 40 or so semester hours in that major. That does not make you an expert. It should be looked upon as the first stepping stone if you plan to carry on with the subject. American college undergraduate physics (excepting the top schools) is not really more advanced than high school physics in some countries.
The people who scan a couple of web pages (of questionable origin) and then claim expertise are even more annoying.
yeah, but at the same time you get professionals who do not know some things. My vet says that my dogs cannot pass a staph infection between each other. she just smiles and nods and tells me I am wrong when I say they do. All micro profs I talk to say it can be passed, and I have even found cases of this, even where a lady had an ear infection of the microorganism from her dog.
"good doggie" *scratch scratch pet pet*
hmm my ear itches... scratch scratch
Also if a staph infection cannot be passed from oneanimal to another, then why do the mastitis treatments recommend isolation? why can people become infected with paratuberculosis?
Anyway, sometimes people are professionals, yet are not specialists
__________________ Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole." Thomas 34
"On blind faith they place reliance, what they need more of is science"- MC Hawking
it is so illuminating to see
how truth brings out the best in people. Why such weeping and gnashing
of teeth, at least you are finding out now?
This is so tired. My gosh they have not come up with anything new to regurg., at Bible study in over 2 years?? Like I mentioned earlier. People simply may distance because they do not like to hear self righteous BS and rhetoric not because what you are saying is ultimate truth. I guess you have to tell your self that, huh?
You are told that you will face resistance when you speak God's word. So you wrongly have come to the conclusion that everytime you face resistance it is only because you are speaking the truth and God's word. As we see from your posts it is not correct.
Wouldn't it be comforting if we all had this attitude?
Lose the self righteous, holier than thou' attitude and stick around and learn some science.
__________________
None of the gods love wisdom or desire to become wise, for they are wise already -- nor if someone else is wise, do they love wisdom. Neither do the ignorant love wisdom or desire to become wise; for this is the grievous thing about ignorance, that those who are neither good nor beautiful nor sensible think they are good enough, and do not desire that which they do not think they are lacking.
Plato, Symposium 203E-204A
Last edited by LorentzHA; 29th November 2003 at 03:26 PM.
yeah, but at the same time you get professionals who do not know some things. My vet says that my dogs cannot pass a staph infection between each other. she just smiles and nods and tells me I am wrong when I say they do. All micro profs I talk to say it can be passed, and I have even found cases of this, even where a lady had an ear infection of the microorganism from her dog.
"good doggie" *scratch scratch pet pet*
hmm my ear itches... scratch scratch
Also if a staph infection cannot be passed from oneanimal to another, then why do the mastitis treatments recommend isolation? why can people become infected with paratuberculosis?
Anyway, sometimes people are professionals, yet are not specialists
True points, but at least they are speaking from an educated point. My point is about the person who would argue the dogs cannot pass that without even knowing what a staph. infection is, only what they have heard one is!!! True I went to a lawyer once who almost got me sued for accidentally deleting something in a contract when I was selling some property. But this does not mean I know more about law than he does.
__________________
None of the gods love wisdom or desire to become wise, for they are wise already -- nor if someone else is wise, do they love wisdom. Neither do the ignorant love wisdom or desire to become wise; for this is the grievous thing about ignorance, that those who are neither good nor beautiful nor sensible think they are good enough, and do not desire that which they do not think they are lacking.
yeah, but at the same time you get professionals who do not know some things. My vet says that my dogs cannot pass a staph infection between each other. she just smiles and nods and tells me I am wrong when I say they do. All micro profs I talk to say it can be passed, and I have even found cases of this, even where a lady had an ear infection of the microorganism from her dog.
"good doggie" *scratch scratch pet pet*
hmm my ear itches... scratch scratch
Also if a staph infection cannot be passed from oneanimal to another, then why do the mastitis treatments recommend isolation? why can people become infected with paratuberculosis?
Anyway, sometimes people are professionals, yet are not specialists
Well I think you are correct when it comes to medical doctors, vets and engineers. These are tradesmen to some extent and not scientists. The average MD did some introductory biochemistry in med school that he no longer uses in his day to day practice. A medical doctor is not a biochemist.
When it comes to evolution & cosmology we are dealing with pure science not day to day science applications as performed by engineers and doctors. Ever notice how many members of ICR and AIG are MD's and Engineers but not physicists, biologists and geologists.
The fact that these exist give good evidence that a symbiotic relationship would have easily come about...the Mitochondria allowed the host cell to "worry" about other things instead of energy production... 
Linear Mode
