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But you are pretty sure that I have not represented them accurately? Do you assume creationists are guilty until proven innocent?
Well, I checked your Dawkins quote and it's pretty obvious that it doesn't say what you wanted it to say (in the context in which you quoted it).
In fact, he even says that the idea of God directing evolution cannot be disproven. So much for evolution excluding God.
(edited to add: I'd also like to point out that I disagree with Dawkins notion that theistic evolution is superfluous with respect to guided evolution. If God had specifically guided changes throughout the evolutionary history of life on Earth, then I think the issue is anything BUT superfluous. In fact, I think it becomes an extremely compelling avenue of research which could consequently lead to proof of God. Mind you, IDists are trying that right now, but unfortunately the issue surrounding ID has become so politically charged, it's hard to get at any real research and data they are doing.)
__________________ Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
Last edited by Pete Harcoff; 9th November 2003 at 04:24 AM.
Since that discussion is now well over 600 posts, I'm going to spend time hunting through it.
Well, this thread, which is quite a lot smaller, has a bunch of the same stuff in it - although it's in that great long thread where he claims that the quotes in context and the explanations of the problems with the quote mining weren't asked for.
__________________ "Sadly, biblical literalism brings not only the bible but Christianity itself into disrepute." - The Rt. Revd. Richard Harries, Anglican Bishop of Oxford.
Ever seen a human with purple eyes? Green hair? Six fingers? There's a good reason for that.
When I was a little girl, I had a good friend who had a younger sister with six fingers on each hand. She had surgery to remove them shortly before she started Kindergarten.
The condition is called polydactyly, and other species experience it, too. In fact, one of my three cats has extra toes on his front and hind feet. His front feet look like oven mitts.
__________________ "People usually consider walking on water or in thin air a miracle. But I think the real miracle is not to walk either on water or in thin air, but to walk on earth. Every day we are engaged in a miracle which we don't even recognize: a blue sky, white clouds, green leaves, the black, curious eyes of a child -- our own two eyes. All is a miracle."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
When I was a little girl, I had a good friend who had a younger sister with six fingers on each hand. She had surgery to remove them shortly before she started Kindergarten.
What I meant to say was that she had the extra digits removed.... not all of them.
__________________ "People usually consider walking on water or in thin air a miracle. But I think the real miracle is not to walk either on water or in thin air, but to walk on earth. Every day we are engaged in a miracle which we don't even recognize: a blue sky, white clouds, green leaves, the black, curious eyes of a child -- our own two eyes. All is a miracle."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
When I was a little girl, I had a good friend who had a younger sister with six fingers on each hand. She had surgery to remove them shortly before she started Kindergarten.
The condition is called polydactyly, and other species experience it, too. In fact, one of my three cats has extra toes on his front and hind feet. His front feet look like oven mitts.
I hear it is actually quite common in cats...
__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
__________________ Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
Please note Cantuar's astute observation in post #71. Dr. Wise has expressed allegiance to scripture, and is confident that scienece will confirm Christian doctrine.
And yet, you claim that we believe in Evolution despite all the evidence against it, and that that is wrong.
__________________
"Arguing with idiots is like banging your head on a rock. All you end up with is a headache and nothing to show for it." - Brian H. West (1986-?)
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Where other boys wanted to be astronauts or firemen, the young Kurt touchingly dreamed of getting a Ph.D. from Harvard and teaching science at a major university. He achieved the first part of his goal, but became increasingly uneasy as his scientific learning conflicted with his religious faith. When he could bear the strain no longer, he clinched the matter with a Bible and a pair of scissors.
Originally Posted by bevets
As I recall 'young Kurt' was eight years old when he engaged in this exercise. Since that time he has had time to refine his 'scientific learning'
Originally Posted by Jet Black
it doesn't sound like he was eight when he did that:
i.e. he got his PhD. I suspect he was older that eight when he got his PhD
this sounds like it was after he got his PhD.
again, after he got his PhD....
I agree that the article (specifically the phrase I have underlined) is poorly worded and misleading. It is apparent that the writer did not receive the account first hand. I am SHOCKED that an evolution web site would misrepresent a creationist.
Originally Posted by Jet Black
I don't know many eight year olds with the biblical and scientific knowledge to engage in such an endeavour really.
Either do I. Meet Kurt Wise.
Last edited by bevets; 9th November 2003 at 03:34 PM.
Did you happen to see the post I linked where Kurt Wise was quoted as admitting the scientific evidence favored an old Earth and universe?
I assume you were citing this reference to a private email:
http://www.christianforums.com/showt...&postcount=112
Ok, I just got a email from Dr. Wise. This is what he said:
"I am a young-age creationist because the Bible indicates the universe is young. Given what we currently think we understand about the world, the majority of the scientific evidence favors an old earth and universe, not a young one. I would therefore say that anyone who claims that the earth is young for scientific evidence alone is scientifically ignorant. Thus I would suggest that the challenge you are trying to meet is unmeetable."
I count 4 sentences that have been quoted without possibility of verifying context. If you could cite a published account where Dr Wise has confessed that scientific evidence dictates an old earth, please do so. Here is the only published account I was able to find that relates to this question:
The buried forests at Yellowstone National Park have long been considered to be powerful evidence of tens to hundreds of thousands of years of buried forests. The long list of similarities between the “buried forests” at Mt. Saint Helens and Yellowstone suggests that perhaps the latter forests were formed in decades not millennia...
What we have learned about geologic catastrophes combined with evidence in the rocks for those catastrophes have forced rather significant changes in geologic interpretation in this century. In the first half of the century a vast percentage of the rock record was interpreted to have been formed very slowly. Due in large part to valiant struggles by individual geologists–such as the half-century struggle of J Harlan Bretz from the 1920’s on–neocatastrophism has become popular. Neocatastrophists interpret individual rock layers as due to distinct local catastrophes. Beginning in 1980 with the dinosaur/asteroid controversy, it has more recently become popular for geologists to consider not just local, but global catastrophes to account for the geologic evidence they see. One can be assured that for a community to have made such an incredible shift–in spite of the strong association which exists between catastrophism and creationism–there must be profound evidence for catastrophe throughout the geologic column.
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