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  #21  
Unread 1st February 2008, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OntheDL View Post
If someone has said IHS are Latin initials of 'Iesus Hominum Salvator', I would have less problems with it.

Because of the fact as RND mentioned, no common practice of using the first 3 letters of the name to refer to the person is found in the Bible or by tradition. At least not any I'm not aware of. That's like saying BUS is Bush, and CLI is Clinton.

Also it's difficult for me to accept the Jesuits would use the transliteration of Greek letters in the seal of the order when RCC has been using Latin for official literature, worship service, bibles.

Combining with the fact that Catholic church does worship a father, mother and child trinity, I think it takes a greater faith to believe IHS stands for the first 3 Greek letters of Jesus' name than to believe they are initial of the trinity.
Thanks again OntheDL. Another excellent post.
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"Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His." - Ellen G. White, Desire of Ages, page 25


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  #22  
Unread 1st February 2008, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RND View Post
Can I assume then you are changing your position then?



Sophia, which is it? Greek or Chinese?



Understood. Where is it ever used in any denomination outside of Catholicism? Where can we find it ever used in any scripture, letter or correspondence to describe Jesus? Help me out Sophia. Show me some evidence other than just saying it means what you say it means.



Are you saying that this person would be more credible if he didn't advocate calling Jesus Yah'shua?

Suggesting Jesus should be called Yah'shua ruins a persons credibility?




I figured you'd find a way to dodge the obvious Sophia. But seeing that you're position as to whether IHS is actual Greek or a transliteration dodging the obvious is understandable.
I didn't say that IHS was actual Greek. I said that it stands for the first three letters of Jesus' Greek name. The H comes from Western Christianity's transliteration of eta into Latin letters.

You said this:

Originally Posted by RND
Jesus' name in greek is Iesius, which mean clearly that IHS is not the first three letters of Jesus' name in Greek.

This can be easily determined by referencing the following chart:


Thus the first three letters of Jesus' name in Greek would be: IEΣ
That is incorrect, even according to the chart that you posted. Read this verse (from the Textus Receptus), and see for yourself how Jesus' name is spelled in Greek (emphasis added):
Mat 3:13 τοτε παραγινεται ο ιησους [2424] απο της γαλιλαιας επι τον ιορδανην προς τον ιωαννην του βαπτισθηναι υπ αυτου
The fact that IHS wasn't used in Scripture and is used by the Catholic Church doesn't make it evil. Also, I've seen it used in several Protestant churches, including Lutheran and Methodist churches.
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Last edited by Sophia7; 1st February 2008 at 02:50 PM.
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  #23  
Unread 1st February 2008, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sophia7 View Post
I didn't say that IHS was actual Greek. I said that it stands for the first three letters of Jesus' Greek name. The H comes from Western Christianity's transliteration of eta into Latin letters.

You said this:



That is incorrect, even according to the chart that you posted. Read this verse (from the Textus Receptus), and see for yourself how Jesus' name is spelled in Greek (emphasis added):
Mat 3:13 τοτε παραγινεται ο ιησους [2424] απο της γαλιλαιας επι τον ιορδανην προς τον ιωαννην του βαπτισθηναι υπ αυτου
The fact that IHS wasn't used in Scripture and is used by the Catholic Church doesn't make it evil. Also, I've seen it used in several Protestant churches, including Lutheran and Methodist churches.
Nice try Sophia, but I think it has been fairly well established that IHS is not Greek nor a transliteration of the Greek for the first three letters of Jesus' name.

Do you have anything to add from any source that might back up your claim, such as the Bible, or a letter from the early church that shows IHS was used to describe Jesus?

If not, then I think we can move on.
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  #24  
Unread 1st February 2008, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by OntheDL View Post
If someone has said IHS are Latin initials of 'Iesus Hominum Salvator', I would have less problems with it.

Because of the fact as RND mentioned, no common practice of using the first 3 letters of the name to refer to the person is found in the Bible or by tradition. At least not any I'm not aware of. That's like saying BUS is Bush, and CLI is Clinton.

Also it's difficult for me to accept the Jesuits would use the transliteration of Greek letters in the seal of the order when RCC has been using Latin for official literature, worship service, bibles.

Combining with the fact that Catholic church does worship a father, mother and child trinity, I think it takes a greater faith to believe IHS stands for the first 3 Greek letters of Jesus' name than to believe they are initial of the trinity.
So you think that the RCC wouldn't use transliterations of Greek? Please explain why they use the phrase Kyrie Eleison then.
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Unread 1st February 2008, 03:01 PM
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IHS

A monogram of the name of Jesus Christ. From the third century the names of our Saviour are sometimes shortened, particularly in Christian inscriptions (IH and XP, for Jesus and Christus). In the next century the "sigla" (chi-rho) occurs not only as an abbreviation but also as a symbol. From the beginning, however, in Christian inscriptions the nomina sacra, or names of Jesus Christ, were shortened by contraction, thus IC and XC or IHS and XPS for Iesous Christos. These Greek monograms continued to be used in Latin during the Middle Ages. Eventually the right meaning was lost, and erroneous interpretation of IHS led to the faulty orthography "Jhesus". In Latin the learned abbreviation IHC rarely occurs after the Carlovingian era. The mongram became more popular after the twelfth century when St. Bernard insisted much on devotion to the Holy Name of Jesus, and the fourteenth, when the founder of the Jesuati, Blessed John Colombini (d. 1367), usually wore it on his breast. Towards the close of the Middle Ages IHS became a symbol, quite like the chi-rho in the Constantinian period. Sometimes above the H appears a cross and underneath three nails, while the whole figure is surrounded by rays. IHS became the accepted iconographical characteristic of St. Vincent Ferrer (d. 1419) and of St. Bernardine of Siena (d. 1444). The latter holy missionary, at the end of his sermons, was wont to exhibit this monogram devoutly to his audience, for which some blamed him; he was even called before Martin V. St. Ignatius of Loyola adopted the monogram in his seal as general of the Society of Jesus (1541), and thus it became the emblem of his institute. IHS was sometimes wrongly understood as "Jesus Hominum (or Hierosolymae) Salvator", i.e. Jesus, the Saviour of men (or of Jerusalem=Hierosolym)


What does IHS mean?

There are several theories regarding this. St.Ignatius used these letters to advocate the name of Jesus as a personal workship. According to Fr.Victorius, IHS means "Jesus Habemus Socium", which means that we have Jesus as our partner. According to Constantine, IHS means "In Hoc Signo vinces" which means with this sign you will win. According to a medieval tradition, IHS means "Jesus Hominum Salvator" which means Jesus savior of men. According to Fr.Duminuco, IHS are letters of the Greek alphabet and they represent the name of Jesus. Information from [http://www.jesuitalumni.org/etc-ing.htm]

Manly P. Hall on the IHS Symbol
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  #26  
Unread 1st February 2008, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RND View Post
Nice try Sophia, but I think it has been fairly well established that IHS is not Greek nor a transliteration of the Greek for the first three letters of Jesus' name.

Do you have anything to add from any source that might back up your claim, such as the Bible, or a letter from the early church that shows IHS was used to describe Jesus?

If not, then I think we can move on.
Your arguments are against the strawmen that you've set up. Since you have failed to address what I'm actually saying, yes, we can move on.
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  #27  
Unread 1st February 2008, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RND View Post
"The IHS emblem today most commonly represents the communion wafer, and is closely asociated with the Jesuit Order."

How true that is. The IHS is and has always been a non-Christian way to address Jesus Christ.

"Some evangelicals have theorized that the initials stand for "Isis, Horus, and Seb," and are related to Egyptian sun worship, but this is a spurious claim that has never been supported by any solid evidence. Solar and Lunar symbolism have been in continual use by the Church and are most likely continuances of Roman ceremonial symbolism. There is, however, good evidence that the initials were used to represent Bacchus, the god of wine, who early Christians identified with Jesus."

Were pagan, we just won't admit it!
Well not really just that there can be parallel drawn by some scholars. And there are loads of parallels between most of the ancient religions including Jewish and Christian religions.
From Wikipedia ( Dionysus is another name for Bacchus):
The modern scholar Barry Powell thinks that Christian notions of eating and drinking the "flesh" and "blood" of Jesus were influenced by the cult of Dionysus. In another parallel Powell adduces, Dionysus was distinct among Greek gods as a deity commonly felt within individual followers. Another example of possible influence on Christianity, Dionysus' followers, as well as another god, Pan, are said to have had the most influence on the modern view of Satan as animal-like and horned.[29]
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Unread 1st February 2008, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RND
Nice try Sophia, but I think it has been fairly well established that IHS is not Greek nor a transliteration of the Greek for the first three letters of Jesus' name.
At least he finally realized that the initials are not Greek.
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Unread 1st February 2008, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Sophia7 View Post
Your arguments are against the strawmen that you've set up. Since you have failed to address what I'm actually saying, yes, we can move on.
I've addressed you Sophia and your argument. You've failed to offer anything but "Because I said so" to your argument so without anything to back up your claim other than "Because I said so" then I'm afraid you have no proof.

You stated that , "Also, I've seen it used in several Protestant churches, including Lutheran and Methodist churches."

No doubt. Lutherans and Methodists are as close to Catholicism as any so-called Protestant church could hope to be. I have no doubt that a Lutheran church may be beguiled into using these symbols.

However, just because some may use these symbols doesn't mean that confirms your belief in what these symbols stand for or mean.

I saw John Lennon on the Dick Cavet show once sporting an Army shirt but I had no delusions that he was in the military. So just because someone uses a symbol doesn't confirm your interpretation of where that symbol originated or what that symbol means.

Just the other day I saw a huge Baptist church in Riverside, California sporting a Freemason/Jehovah Witness crown and leaning cross symbol on their church. While they may not know the origins of such symbols I myself had no delusions as to it origin.



KNIGHTS TEMPLAR

"The Cross and Crown may be said to be confined almost exclusively to the historical degrees in Masonry as exemplified in the various orders of knighthood of York and Scottish rites. In Gaul we find the cross to have been a solar symbol when it had equal arms and angles; to the Phoenicians it was an instrument of sacrifice to their God, Baal; and to the Egyptians, the crux ansata was his symbol of eternal life."'44 [Emphasis in the original]

In The Masonic Report we find more about this emblem:

"Question: What does Masonry's emblem of the 'Cross and Crown' actually symbolize?

"Answer: The 'Cross' of Freemasonry is a philosophical cross, according to Albert Pike, 'Morals and Dogma,' p. 771. It is philosophical in the sense that it represents the generating fecundating principle by the perpendicular shaft, 350 MASONIC AND OCCULT SYMBOLS ILLUSTRATED and the matrix or womb of nature, the female producing principle by the horizontal shaft. The philosophy of the Masonic cross is totally phallic. "The 'Crown' of this Masonic emblems is also phallic, it being the first emanation of the Cabalistic Sephiroth...."4'

A former Mason also explains:

"The other York Rite jewelry you may see is the Templar symbol....It is a large Maltese cross with a circle in the center. Inside the circle is a red Latin cross within a crown. Around the arms of the cross is the Commandery motto, 'In Hoc Signo Vinces.' (In this sign, conquer!)

"Although this may seem harmless enough, the motto is originally attributed to the emperor Constantine, who used it in conjunction with a supposedly
heavenly vision to begin the subversion and politicization of Biblical Christianity into the false, apostate Alexandrian cult....

"A similar shell game is played with the word 'sign.'... The sign Constantine referred to was NOT a Christian cross, but a kind of 'X' which had both Christian and pagan associations. In modern magic, it is the sign of the slain and risen Egyptian god, Osiris (another version of the 'slain and risen' Hiram Abif).

-Again Masonry has downgraded Jesus and replaced Him with its own 'christ'." [Emphasis in the original]

351 MASONIC AND EASTERN STAR SYMBOLS

Two other groups (both with Masonic connections) use the cross and crown. Charles Taze Russell was a Mason who started the Jehovah Witnesses. (The image below this is one of Russell's grave stones). He used the red cross and other distinctive features of the Knights Templar logo.'"

He also used the Masonic symbol of the winged sun-disk with snakes and he is "buried in a pyramid with masonic symbols on its capstone."

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Unread 1st February 2008, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RC_NewProtestants View Post
Well not really just that there can be parallel drawn by some scholars. And there are loads of parallels between most of the ancient religions including Jewish and Christian religions.
From Wikipedia ( Dionysus is another name for Bacchus):
Actually, Jesus even taught the Pharisees that just because they accepted certain religous notions from the Greeks didn't make them true. See Luke 16:19-31 for instance.

There were many parallels drawn by the Israelites to the ancient religions around them and they were warned many times by God to avoid them. They did not listen and as a result even during Jesus' day these Pharsisees and Sadducees had adopted non-Jewish beliefs in their practices.

RC, just because something appears one way or parallels something, doesn't mean that it always been that way or is the correct belief to accept.

The Jews adopted the practice once of all those around them to sacrifice children to the fires of Molech and Baal. Should I assume this was a common Jewish practice of the day was right and proper? Of course not.

Christianity is different from any other religious movement on the face of the Earth.
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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

"No science is equal to the science that reveals the character of God." - Ellen G. White, Author

"Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His." - Ellen G. White, Desire of Ages, page 25


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