Restoration Movement Formal Discussion / TeachingA forum for light theological/doctrinal discussion/debate and teaching between RM members and other Christians.
For a very long time in our local church I and a few others have been quite uncomfortable. Thomas Welch's modern invention of grape juice was shoved down our throats each Sunday, and we wanted wine like Christ instituted.
The Churches of Christ have no creed but Christ theoretically, but in practice, they have no creed but Churches of Christ traditions, which include no tolerance for anything but immersion baptism and being a teetotaler.
So, about 6 months ago, some of us requested a choice for communion, wine for some and juice for others, so that everyone's faith could be accomodated. For a long time this decision was put off and in the end I just gave up and decided no longer to take part because of the mandatory grape juice. It just did not represent my faith.
Then, a miracle occurred. One elder who is a firm grape juicer, teetotaler and vehemently anti-alcohol, said we ought to consider the faith of others. It was put to a vote and we now accomodate the faith of others in this area.
Yahoooooo! I feel so much better now! About half of us take the wine and the other half take the grape juice. It's just so wonderful! Yay!
You said you wanted to have "wine like Christ instituted."
Which scripture/verse/passage is it that you think "instituted" wine in the Lord's supper???
I can not seem to find that.
The NT uses "fruit of the vine" as mentioned for the Lord's Supper, and uses "wine" elsewhere - and even the expression "new wine" (do you know what that is?).
grape juice is from the "fruit of vine" so you were following scripture all along. I wonder if your elders know that there are many greek terms for english word "wine", and that it depends on how long it's been fermenting, how it was grown, etc, that determines what kind of wine it is whether alcoholic, non-alcholic, really rich in flavor, bitter, (etc on that too!). The wine not told be drunk in the old testament was talking about alcoholic wine, but a different term for wine is used in the Greek language when Jesus made water into wine. Now, I don't rememeber what those terms are, but it shouldn't take away from any credibility of what I am saying for I was told this by my own teachers, and all the Baptist ministers I've encountered have told me the same thing. In fact, there's a book on the many different kinds of wines there are. So, yes, you can have wine, but someone might want to question of how much it's been sitting out in the sun?
You said you wanted to have "wine like Christ instituted."
Which scripture/verse/passage is it that you think "instituted" wine in the Lord's supper???
I can not seem to find that.
The NT uses "fruit of the vine" as mentioned for the Lord's Supper, and uses "wine" elsewhere - and even the expression "new wine" (do you know what that is?).
Please let me know...
Some people believe that the “fruit of the vine” described in the Bible was unfermented grape juice. But this is a misunderstanding of history and science. Until pasteurization and refrigeration, fresh squeezed grape juice always fermented within a very few days. Certainly "new wine" placed in wineskins is almost totally unfermented. However, this differs from today’s processed grape juice. It has not been killed by pasteurization, and within a short time takes on that characteristic tang of alcohol production. You may have tasted that same zest when you sugared sliced peaches and left them in the refrigerator a day or so. Fresh apple cider will also begin to get tangy or “hard” within a few days.
The idea that some have of ancient peoples keeping bunches of grapes for six months from the autumn harvest to the spring Passover festival so that they could squeeze out grape juice is naïve. Not only is it a preposterous misrepresentation of ancient culture, but grapes would surely have rotted or turned to raisins by that time.
The expression "fruit of the vine" was "employed by the Jews from time immemorial for the wine partaken of on sacred occasions, as at the Passover and on the evening of the Sabbath” (The New Westminster Dictionary of the Bible).
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Koey the Koala.
Last edited by Koey; 8th February 2008 at 06:27 PM.
grape juice is from the "fruit of vine" so you were following scripture all along. I wonder if your elders know that there are many greek terms for english word "wine", and that it depends on how long it's been fermenting, how it was grown, etc, that determines what kind of wine it is whether alcoholic, non-alcholic, really rich in flavor, bitter, (etc on that too!). The wine not told be drunk in the old testament was talking about alcoholic wine, but a different term for wine is used in the Greek language when Jesus made water into wine. Now, I don't rememeber what those terms are, but it shouldn't take away from any credibility of what I am saying for I was told this by my own teachers, and all the Baptist ministers I've encountered have told me the same thing. In fact, there's a book on the many different kinds of wines there are. So, yes, you can have wine, but someone might want to question of how much it's been sitting out in the sun?
Louw-Nida Greek Lexicon: oinos, a fermented beverage made from the juice of grapes - 'wine.'
Friberg Greek Lexicon: wine; lit. of the juice of grapes usu. fermented
That's great news Koey. These issues simply shouldn't be divisive, so the fact that your congregation has found a way to accomodate everyone without compromising is wonderful.
It's kinda funny that this thread is already heading towards a discussion about whether or not "fruit of the vine" is alcoholic or not. Regardless - I think your congregation has addressed the issue beautifully. At the most basic level it's clear that both wine and unfermented grape juice are fruit of the vine. To allow inidividuals to act on their convictions regarding the matter without judging the others is a great example.
Thanks for sharing this
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That's great news Koey. These issues simply shouldn't be divisive, so the fact that your congregation has found a way to accomodate everyone without compromising is wonderful.
It's kinda funny that this thread is already heading towards a discussion about whether or not "fruit of the vine" is alcoholic or not. Regardless - I think your congregation has addressed the issue beautifully. At the most basic level it's clear that both wine and unfermented grape juice are fruit of the vine. To allow inidividuals to act on their convictions regarding the matter without judging the others is a great example.
Thanks for sharing this
Thanks for bringing this back to the topic so tactfully. Yes, there will probably always be Christians who want to insist upon Tommy Welch's grape juice as being the same that Jesus used. But, as you said, it is so good that both are now accomodated in our local church.
I hear that more and more churches are doing this too. Isn't that just fantastic!
Koey – Thanks for your reply. It was disappointing to see that you did not offer ONE scripture in support of your position. I guess you know what that tellsme, huh? And instead, you chose rather to support your position with “reasoning” from science and history. So let’s look at that… You said - Some people believe that the “fruit of the vine” described in the Bible was unfermented grape juice. But this is a misunderstanding of history and science. Until pasteurization and refrigeration, fresh squeezed grape juice always fermented within a very few days. So would you say that if the grapes were freshly squeezed or crushed within, say 48 - 72 hours or less, there would be no alcoholic content as yet, correct? How would this be a misunderstanding of science as I believe that “fruit of the vine” is the unfermented juice of the grape? You said - Certainly "new wine" placed in wineskins is almost totally unfermented. I would say so – if any at all. You said - However, this differs from today’s processed grape juice. It has not been killed by pasteurization, and within a short time takes on that characteristic tang of alcohol production. Any grape juice, today or yesteryear, will ferment. How fast depends upon many factors. I do not believe we have any disagreement on this point.
You said -The idea that some have of ancient peoples keeping bunches of grapes for six months from the autumn harvest to the spring Passover festival so that they could squeeze out grape juice is naïve. Not only is it a preposterous misrepresentation of ancient culture, but grapes would surely have rotted or turned to raisins by that time. Your comment here presumes an “autumn harvest” only. Given the varied growing regions (Sharon, Galilee, Judean Hills, and the Golan Heights), grapes are grown virtually year around in Israel. Did your sources of ancient culture mention this? Summary so far: No scripture has been given at this point to sustain any position about whether or not the “fruit of the vine” used in the Lord’s supper was fermented. Grape juice can exist with or without fermentation and to believe such does not violate any any understandings of science. Nothing of historical import was given in support any position. -------------- Word study – Let’s look at how the Bible uses words in relation to WINE, what they mean, and what we can learn from them… OT: Hebrew – yayin From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); [also] by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].
Used in Gen. 9:21, Lev. 10:9, as well as Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Ecc., Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekeiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, and others.
The Israelites knew what wine was. ------------ Hebrew - tiyrosh New wine - in the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape juice (as just squeezed out); by implication (rarely) fermented wine: - (new, sweet) wine.
Used in Neh. 13:5,12, Prov. 3:10, Isa. 24:7, Hosea 9:2, Joel 1:10, Hag. 1:11, Zec. 9:17,and others.
This expression “new wine” is used in many passages of the OT. Welch did not invent grape juice without alcohol content. ------------- Hebrew - shêkâr “Strong drink” - an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine. See Lev. 10:9, Num. 6:3 and others. Origin of the Greek word “sikera” below. ------------- NT: Greek -sikera Of Hebrew origin; an intoxicant, that is, intensely fermented liquor: - strong drink. See only at Luke 1:15. Read also Luke 5:38&39. ------------- Greek - gleukos …sweet wine, that is, (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine [but not in NT writings]: - new wine. See Acts 2:13. ----------------- BUT…
None of the above words, their roots, or derivations are used in connection with the “instituting” of the Lord’s supper or its performance! In reference to the “Lord’s Supper”, we find this expression used:
“…fruit of the vine…” as found in Matt 26:29, Mark 14:25, and Luke 22:18.
So what does the use of this particular expression mean?
First, no implication can be made to “fruit of the vine” from any of the previous “wine” words. There is no connection.
Second, we know that Jesus uses a term never before used in scripture to convey the thought of what they were drinking.
“I shall not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom…”
If we can figure out what “fruit of the vine” is, we can know what they were drinking. At this point, anyone who can see through a ladder realizes that “fruit of the vine” means grapes, and because they were drinking it, we can know it was grape juice !
There were many earlier words that could have been used to implicate an alcoholic drink was being used in the Supper, but none of them were used by Jesus. History and science can’t change the meaning of these 4 simple words – “fruit of the vine”. All the rationalization you can muster can not get any “fermentation” into these words.
Third, because His supper was instituted after the PASSOVER supper, we know NO leavening (ei. fermentation) of any kind was allowed for the seven days of the feast – see Exodus 12 and compare with Leviticus 2. Both the bread and the drink had to be in harmony with this Passover requirement.
Now Koey, if you still disagree, please tell me why. Otherwise admit you see what the scriptures teach and stop your unauthorized practice of using alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper.
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