6 point proof for the post trib rapture

onwingsaseagles · #1 31st January 2008, 10:54 PM

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

zeke37 · #2 31st January 2008, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

Hello there and welcome to the forum.

I agree with you, but others will give you some slack....

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

Again, you are correct.....but the pre tribbers just do not see it that way....

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

right again.....but be prepared for a rebuttal.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

I agree...

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

correct....

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

mostly I agree....except I do not believe that there will be any martyred in the Trib, except the 2 olive trees, one of the two witnesses. Satan nor his locust army cannot kill anyone at all hat has the mark of the beast, just sting them, hurt them (spiritually)....and the only other group left is those that have the Seal of God....to them, 100% protection is offered.

So, Satan is not coming here to kill, but to be worshiped as God....he will pretend to be Christ returned, so he will be all nice, nice....not death and killing in the flesh, but rather killing spiritually....fooling the planet.

But I have literally dozens of other proofs to offer for post trib.........to back you up on......good luck.

the 7 candlesticks are defined in Rev1 as the 7 churches

2 of those churches/candlesticks are favored by Christ....in Rev2-3...Smyrna and Philadelphia.....and in Zec as well.

2 candlesticks are in opposition to the beast in Rev11....proving post trib of course...

in His service
c

onwingsaseagles · #3 31st January 2008, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by zeke37

mostly I agree....except I do not believe that there will be any martyred in the Trib, except the 2 olive trees, one of the two witnesses. Satan nor his locust army cannot kill anyone at all hat has the mark of the beast, just sting them, hurt them (spiritually)....and the only other group left is those that have the Seal of God....to them, 100% protection is offered.

So, Satan is not coming here to kill, but to be worshiped as God....he will pretend to be Christ returned, so he will be all nice, nice....not death and killing in the flesh, but rather killing spiritually....fooling the planet.

But I have literally dozens of other proofs to offer for post trib.........to back you up on......good luck.

the 7 candlesticks are defined in Rev1 as the 7 churches

2 of those churches/candlesticks are favored by Christ....in Rev2-3...Smyrna and Philadelphia.....and in Zec as well.

2 candlesticks are in opposition to the beast in Rev11....proving post trib of course...

in His service
c

Thank you for you support,my question would be what about those killed for not worshipping the beast or his image,those that are beheaded for the testimony of Christ.

Do you not believe those to be martyrs?

ross3421 · #4 31st January 2008, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

2 hurdles.

1. You need to show where christians survive the wrath of the AC and remain until Christ's return. (not to include the 144,000)

2. Scripture in many areas states that one must die. Where are the scriptures which state otherwise. Even if there were we have a conflict of God's word which cannot be.

Mark

HisdaughterJen · #5 31st January 2008, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

Yes, and do you define the 2nd coming as only when Jesus' foot touches the Mt of Olives or everything leading up to that? ...like judgment and wrath? Remember, Jesus sat down before finishing the scripture (Luke 4:17-20):
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
Isa 61:2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor

(He stopped right here)

and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

OK, define tribulation, BIBLICALLY, and not by what you have been taught to believe.

...the final years are judgment and wrath, not tribulation, Biblically.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

again, define trib

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

It's a big day...1000 years long.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

The last day is 1000 years long and involves at least 4 resurrections:
1. resurrection and catching away (when Christ appears prior to judgment and wrath)
2. resurrection and catching away of two witnesses (when beast kills them)
3. resurrection of the martyrs who refused to worship the beast (at Christ's physical return)
4. resurrection of those who die during the millenium and the bad people for GWT judgment.

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

Well, somebody is already there and able to judge so the resurrections have to do with harvests...there's gleanings, firstfruits, and general harvest.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

onwingsaseagles · #6 31st January 2008, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by ross3421

2 hurdles.

1. You need to show where christians survive the wrath of the AC and remain until Christ's return. (not to include the 144,000)

2. Scripture in many areas states that one must die. Where are the scriptures which state otherwise. Even if there were we have a conflict of God's word which cannot be.

Mark

1st cor 15:51 we shall not all sleep but we shall all be change.

This scripture is proof of survivors.

1st thess 4:17 The we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

More proof.

Remember both of these scripture take place at the resurrection of the just which is at the 2nd coming of Jesus which is at the end of the tribulation proving there will be those that survive the tribulation as well as the anti christ.

zeke37 · #7 31st January 2008, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

Thank you for you support,my question would be what about those killed for not worshipping the beast or his image,those that are beheaded for the testimony of Christ.

Do you not believe those to be martyrs?

Hello again....

I do not believe that they(any) are martyred in the time of Jacobs trouble except the two individual Olive Trees of Rev11.....I believe that they are all dead in Christ who have been martyred since He was Sacrificed, and even before, as with John the Baptist...(he was beheaded)...as are some today.....

IMO, there are different groups mentioned in Rev20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

colour coded believers-first fruits....those killed/martyred before Jacob's trouble....those that refuse the mark (but are not killed because they are Sealed)

first fruits....first ressurection.....dead in Christ and the elect alive to be Gathered to them....

Satan is coming to fool the world an be worshiped as God, so no killing.....plus God said that he was not allowed to kill anyone. We could go into it in detail if you wish?

in His service
c

zeke37 · #8 31st January 2008, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by ross3421

2 hurdles.

1. You need to show where christians survive the wrath of the AC and remain until Christ's return. (not to include the 144,000)

but the 144,000 are Christians who follow the Lamb where ever He goes...so we must include them....and they do survive(as every one else in jacob's trouble does), as they are Sealed of God and have a witness to complete.

2. Scripture in many areas states that one must die. Where are the scriptures which state otherwise. Even if there were we have a conflict of God's word which cannot be.

Mark

Yes it is appoointed to all me to die....as a general rule for sure/....

but we know that Enoch was taken with out dying, and Elijah as well.....these are examples for the elect alive on earth during that time....

1Cor15 plainly states that we shall not all sleep...IOW, no waiting in heaven for those elect alive at His coming....just the change to the New Celestial Body, and Gathered to Christ for the Jerusalem touch down.

in His service
c

ross3421 · #9 1st February 2008, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

1st cor 15:51 we shall not all sleep but we shall all be change.

This scripture is proof of survivors.

Does this verse really say that some do not die? Or rather we shall not sleep but be resurrected from the grave in which the entire chapter has focused.

Moreover what do we do with these scriptures? Which are right or wrong? Do we discount them or or the false? What?

Ro 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1co 15:22For as in Adam all die,

1co 15:36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1st thess 4:17 The we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

More proof.

Does the above verse really mean that some do not die? Or rather are the alive and remain those which have been resurrected?

1co 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.1co 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You have the same hurdles as the pretrib, however we do agree that the timing of the resurrection negates pretrib.

Welcome aboard.

ross3421 · #10 1st February 2008, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by zeke37

but the 144,000 are Christians who follow the Lamb where ever He goes...so we must include them....and they do survive(as every one else in jacob's trouble does), as they are Sealed of God and have a witness to complete.

They are the remnant of Israel for sure, are they Christians? Now they do survive wrath but are they not still killed in the end? Do we not see this remnant rising up from the graves in EZ 37?

but we know that Enoch was taken with out dying, and Elijah as well.....these are examples for the elect alive on earth during that time....

The above is debatable which I can show otherwise. Anyway are these not the two witnesses? Then they do die in the end.

1Cor15 plainly states that we shall not all sleep

...

If is was plain then Paul would have said die and not sleep. Paul sure was confused as in the same chapter he writes otherwise.

We shall not all sleep but we will awake in the grave upon hearing his voice and rise.

1co 11:29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.1co 11:30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Eph 5:14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1co 15:51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Mark