6 point proof for the post trib rapture

B1inHim · #**251** 3rd November 2009, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by NJBeliever

Yes, yes, yes. It is all being written in sequence.

5th Seal: Martyrs who have been slain over the centuries asking God The Father when is The Day of The Lord going to begin. They are told it will begin when God's Divine number for Martyrs has been met.

6th Seal: Sun goes black, moon goes red, (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20) earthquake, and the rich and powerful running for the hills as Isaiah prophesied. The Day of The Lord is about to begin and thus we have the rapture.

Rev 7: The Multitude are the raptured saints.

Again, I am not pre-trib or pre-wrath. This is just how it plainly happens. The Day of The Lord cannot begin until the 6th seal at which time the saints who are alive are raptured and suddenly appear in Heaven. God bless.

Based on your post here you are Pre-Wrath but because we do not agree on just exactly when that takes place... same page, same book, different language...
IMO, the wrath of GOD is heralded by the rulers of the planet in the following declaration

Rev. 6:15-17 (KJV)
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That is where it is marked as beginning in my heart… the “harpazo” takes place during the consequences of the opening of the 6th seal…

zeke37 · #**252** 4th November 2009, 02:38 AM

IMO, the 6th seal is about Satan, not Christ.
an immitation of the real....
which is why there is silence in heaven for the following 7th seal....

Satan is cast out at the 1/2 way point of the tribulation...
he is cast out of heaven and to the earth
(earthquake, signs in the sky etc.)
and then there is silence in heaven, for the accuser is gone
the kings of the earth (in league with him) make the declaration abouth the wrath, not heavenly beings.

We learn about God's wrath later,
after the elect are gathered to Christ in Rev14...
read the following chapters 15-16 and we se the wrath poured out.

the entire trib (trumps and vials) is contained within the 7th seal...

the seals are info SEALED into the minds of the Christian elect,
so they are not deceived by Satan,
when he comes play acting Christ....looking like a lamb.

they themselves are not events but are much the same as the Olivet prophecy Mat24/Mar13/Luk21...
a teaching in the same order even...

info for the elect....

the false Christ's and his kingdom's arrival being the first 4 Seals..., the 4 horsemen...

heavenly judgements and an earthquake in the 6th Seal
is Satan being cast out of heaven,
hence the silence in heaven for the 7th seal,
which contains the tribualtion period...

Satan is not in heaven anymore to accuse us.

zeke37 · #**253** 4th November 2009, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Deadwing

With all the back and forth of verses and chapters, I was thinking that often with pre-tribulation doctrine the point of Revelation is lost. Let me explain...

In the West, we are comfortable and free to worship as we please. We do not know what it is to be persecuted. We may be made fun of or mistreated in the work place or at school, but our lives are not at risk by the State. Christians who are really under pressure in communist China, Islamic states and even Catholic countries in South America seem to understand this fundamental book better than we do.

They don’t see it as an academic or intellectual exercise or a puzzle to be solved. They see it as a great comfort in helping them to stand strong in the face of torture, imprisonment, and even martyrdom.
Something that struck me about a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture that is a concern is the danger of being blinded. What I mean by that is that when the rapture doesn’t come before the tribulation won’t many Christians who subscribe to this point of view say something like: “He can’t be the anti-Christ because we’re still here.” It won’t be a case of being left behind because there won’t have been a mass departure of Christians.

so true, and this is a real concern for post tribbers that want to help pre tribbers (or mid tribbers)
see the truth and the danger of their belief.

One thing to note about Revelation is that it is written in “street” Greek, not classical.

Yes, coloquial greek....Paul used it too.
that's why he would use "cloud(s)"
to represent a large mass multitude in 1Thes4 and Heb12

In fact, many commentators have observed that the grammar is very poor and John spoke and wrote very good Greek. The reason for this is that he was writing the things he saw down as he was seeing them. He was being told “Write this down... Write this...” So, the grammar is completely understandable and the language is meant for the average man on the street to be able to read it and understand. It is a practical book as well as a prophetic one.

I heard one teacher say that the reason that the Greek is so poor and not edited is because of the curse mentioned at the end of the book. Would you go back and change anything after being told that? I know I wouldn’t.

so true

Also, if the pre-tribulation rapture is indeed false (which I believe the originator of this thread has proved conclusively), then anything after the letters to the seven churches is somewhat irrelevant as we won’t be around. Why do we need to know about the coming judgements?

exactly...God would warn us, and then remove us???

Yes, it could be said that it is written for the 144,000 and those who have not accepted Jesus before the tribulation starts; but I think it is far more sensible to use it as preparation for what we may go through in the not too distant future.

Another thing to note in the book of Revelation is that it is not only a wrathful book; it is also one of mercy. Reading the trumpet judgements (especially the earlier ones), it is obvious that God is giving mankind a chance to repent and accept His mercy and be sanctified before it is too late.

some will indeed "come out of babylon" Rev18:4..
and be considered a virgin (again) for Christ instead of a whore for the false Christ.

I wanted to bring to mind the Children of Israel in Egypt who were protected from the wrath of God. I believe that God will do that for believers during the end times. I do not mean from persecution, rather His own judgements. We are called to be overcomers, even unto death.

I don’t think it’s that important to understand everything in Revelation.

well, we should certainly try

the Bible interprets itself...
and Rev is full of OT symbology

For example I have no idea what the white stone is referring to; but I know it’s a good thing and that’s enough for me. I don’t know what the locusts are, but I know they are bad and that believers are protected from them. That’s enough for me too.

the White stone is the Cap stone...which is Christ.
and we are told that He has a New Name...when He comes

we can be in Him, if we stay faithful (virginous) thus part of the Temple..a Pillar, receive a white stone too, white for purity/washed clean robes...and we shall have a new Name just like Christ...
the white stone is a very good thing

as for the Locusts....same locusts as Joel2...
Satan is the king of them (appolyon/abbadon)

the Locust army are IMO the fallen angels
that are cast out of heaven with Satan in Rev12....
seen leaving the pit (where they were cast out of) in Rev9
Supernatural beings that look like men but are not.
the toes of Dan2...
ten of them (kings) receive power from the political NWO beast for 1 hour (the hour of temptation)

Finally: a group of Bible students were studying Revelation at a Bible college and were finding it difficult to get to grips with. They decided to have a time out and play some hoops. When they had finished they noticed the janitor sitting reading the Bible and asked what book he was reading. He told them it was Revelation and they were surprised. One of them asked if he understood it and he replied: “Of course.” Again surprised, the student asked what he believed it meant. “Jesus wins,” he said, simply.

and He does indeed...I read the end of the book too!

B1inHim · #**254** 4th November 2009, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by zeke37

so true, and this is a real concern for post tribbers that want to help pre tribbers (or mid tribbers)
see the truth and the danger of their belief.

Yes, coloquial greek....Paul used it too.
that's why he would use "cloud(s)"
to represent a large mass multitude in 1Thes4 and Heb12

That is not what he is talking about... the clouds are clouds, not a represntation of something else

What formula do you use to get this out of those verses?

Because Lord Jesus told us about Matthew 24:30 (KJV)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: which is in context with what Apostle Paul spoke of in I Thes 4 and the sign of the son of man is not a large mass multiutde... OTHERWISE they would have said large mass multitude... they did no do so... these are personal interpretaions and do not reflect the Word of GOD

zeke37 · #**255** 4th November 2009, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by B1inHim

That is not what he is talking about... the clouds are clouds, not a represntation of something else

What formula do you use to get this out of those verses?

ummm....just what I posted...
Paul used coloquial greek and wrote both 1Thes and Heb.
the "cloud(s)" that he referes to
are the mass multitude of believers in Heb12, and in 1Thes4, the returning dead,

and, no coincidence,
just like is promised in 1Thes4:13-16 when Christ returns...
hE IS seen Coming with A LARGE GROUP in Mat24/Mar13/Luk21/Rev19
there is a large body of believers/army/witnesses that return with Him.

Because Lord Jesus told us about Matthew 24:30 (KJV)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: which is in context with what Apostle Paul spoke of in I Thes 4 and the sign of the son of man is not a large mass multiutde... OTHERWISE they would have said large mass multitude... they did no do so... these are personal interpretaions and do not reflect the Word of GOD[/quote]

Paul used clouds in Heb12 and obviously meant a large mass multitude....
I wonder why it is a stretch
to believe that the same author
describes the retunring dead,
which is also a large group of believers,
as a cloud???

When Christ comes,
all eyes see Him...
there is no hiding behind atmospheric clouds...

I added mid trib just for you and Jen

NJBeliever · #**256** 4th November 2009, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by B1inHim

Based on your post here you are Pre-Wrath but because we do not agree on just exactly when that takes place... same page, same book, different language...
IMO, the wrath of GOD is heralded by the rulers of the planet in the following declaration

Rev. 6:15-17 (KJV)
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That is where it is marked as beginning in my heart… the “harpazo” takes place during the consequences of the opening of the 6th seal…

I'm glad we're not that much in disagreement. Yes, the verse from Rev 6 you just cited IS when the Day of The Lord begins (Isaiah 2). It is also the time of the rapture. But again, I am NOT pre-wrath.

I am not pre-wrath because in that model the timing of the Day of The Lord is off. The Day of The Lord can only begin at the 6th seal (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20). When we read about the sun going dark in Matt 24:29-31, that is a reference to the blackout that occurs during the 5th and last bowl judgments right before Christ returns. It's not a reference to the 6th Seal or the Day of The Lord (because Christ comes immediately afterward in the Matt 24:-29-31 passage and thus that cannot be the beginning but the end).

Additionally the "gathering of the elect" mentioned in Matt 24 is not the rapture, but the prophesied gathering of Messianic Jews at the end of the 70th week.

Zechariah 2:6Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 11:11-12– “In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.”

Isaiah 27:12-13 – “In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered up one by one. And in that day a great trumpet will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.”

Matthew 24:31 – “And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

So much of what Jesus says is Old Testament scripture. so this beautiful truth makes it easier to confirm which prophecies He is referencing because the language is the same.

I can give other reasons as well for why I disagree with the pre-wrath model but I think this shares enough of my view. The pre-wrath model is very good in the sense that it recognizes the Day of The Lord and rapture as happening at the 6th Seal, but it's timing is off and some of it's interpretation is just not possible, biblically.

For more info on what it is I do actually believe, you can go here.

http://www.redmoonrising.com/RMRbook/Ch7.htm

God bless.

Remnant 01 · #**257** 4th November 2009, 06:43 PM

Something that struck me about a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture that is a concern is the danger of being blinded. What I mean by that is that when the rapture doesn’t come before the tribulation won’t many Christians who subscribe to this point of view say something like: “He can’t be the anti-Christ because we’re still here.” It won’t be a case of being left behind because there won’t have been a mass departure of Christians.

I agree, it is scary to think of the souls that will one day be lost because of the pretrib doctrine. It saddens me to see how many pretribber attack those that sincerely want to help them with venom, and anger, rather than receiving the truth of God's word.

B1inHim · #**258** 4th November 2009, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by zeke37

ummm....just what I posted...
Paul used coloquial greek and wrote both 1Thes and Heb.
the "cloud(s)" that he referes to
are the mass multitude of believers in Heb12, and in 1Thes4, the returning dead,

and, no coincidence,
just like is promised in 1Thes4:13-16 when Christ returns...
hE IS seen Coming with A LARGE GROUP in Mat24/Mar13/Luk21/Rev19
there is a large body of believers/army/witnesses that return with Him.

Paul used clouds in Heb12 and obviously meant a large mass multitude....
I wonder why it is a stretch
to believe that the same author
describes the retunring dead,
which is also a large group of believers,
as a cloud???

When Christ comes,
all eyes see Him...
there is no hiding behind atmospheric clouds...

I added mid trib just for you and Jen

you are doing it again... show the translation of your interpretation in scripture... that clouds are a metaphor of a great multitude... show how he "OBVIOUSLY" according to you, used clouds to represent what you are saying...
Thanks...
you are putting your own interpretation on two things that are entirely different... "Such a great cloud of witness"... and "caught up together with them in the clouds" do not imply, interpret or even suggest in any way shape or form that they mean the same thing in any language

Matthew 24:29-30 (KJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

NO LARGE group here...
Mark 13:24-26 (KJV)
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. [26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Not here either... WAIT... you are using your interpretation of the “great power and glory” to get this interpretation...correct?

Jesus does NOT need some massive entourage to do that, He can do all of that on His own and to interpret it the way you are... no wonder you believe what you do... you are clearly adding your OWN understanding to a basic understanding and making an interpretation based on what you personally believe...
I get it...

Zeke37, when this is all over and dung with and we are standing on the right hand... one of us can allpologize or maybe we can just hang out and have a wonderful eternity...

It finally dawned on me why you are seeing what you are attempting to teach here... it is not what is written, but how one interprets what they see...

I see a cloud; you see a massive group of people...

I see a evidence of a seal being opened, you see some signal or sign...

I see two people in the field and when one goes it is because they heard and did what Lord Jesus told them to and they go to a wonderful dinner, job well done (according to Lord Jesus)...

You see two people in the field, one goes and the one left here, has to still work (according to, I do not know why)...

When the sign of Lord Jesus appears in the sky and His angels go around "harpazoing" where do they go?
Not back to the field, at least they don't do that according to the Word anyways

Thanks again

B1inHim · #**259** 4th November 2009, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by NJBeliever

I'm glad we're not that much in disagreement. Yes, the verse from Rev 6 you just cited IS when the Day of The Lord begins (Isaiah 2). It is also the time of the rapture. But again, I am NOT pre-wrath.

Originally Posted by NJBeliever

I am not pre-wrath because in that model the timing of the Day of The Lord is off. The Day of The Lord can only begin at the 6th seal (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20). When we read about the sun going dark in Matt 24:29-31, that is a reference to the blackout that occurs during the 5th and last bowl judgments right before Christ returns. It's not a reference to the 6th Seal or the Day of The Lord (because Christ comes immediately afterward in the Matt 24:-29-31 passage and thus that cannot be the beginning but the end).

Additionally the "gathering of the elect" mentioned in Matt 24 is not the rapture, but the prophesied gathering of Messianic Jews at the end of the 70th week.

Zechariah 2:6Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 11:11-12– “In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.”

Isaiah 27:12-13 – “In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered up one by one. And in that day a great trumpet will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.”

Matthew 24:31 – “And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

So much of what Jesus says is Old Testament scripture. so this beautiful truth makes it easier to confirm which prophecies He is referencing because the language is the same.

I can give other reasons as well for why I disagree with the pre-wrath model but I think this shares enough of my view. The pre-wrath model is very good in the sense that it recognizes the Day of The Lord and rapture as happening at the 6th Seal, but it's timing is off and some of it's interpretation is just not possible, biblically.

For more info on what it is I do actually believe, you can go here.

http://www.redmoonrising.com/RMRbook/Ch7.htm

God bless.

I see exactly what you are saying and the difference in what you are saying and I, is the interpretation of just exactly what is PRE-Wrath anyways...
I'm changing my wording because it is not as clear as saying...the "harpazo" takes place during the 6th seal... "Mid 6th seal" is too long though... so I use "Pre-wrath" that means (in MY understanding) that it happens before the terrible wrath is poured out and right at the same time that this is being said...
Rev. 6:15-17 (KJV)
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Which is a direct result of the opening of the 6th seal

This, according to MY interpretation and understanding is where the actual wrath begins... not in action but in words... it is a declaration to anyone who is now left after the cataclysmic events of
Rev. 6:12-14 (KJV)
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Thanks…
Blessings

zeke37 · #**260** 5th November 2009, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by B1inHim

you are doing it again... show the translation of your interpretation in scripture... that clouds are a metaphor of a great multitude... show how he "OBVIOUSLY" according to you, used clouds to represent what you are saying...
Thanks...
you are putting your own interpretation on two things that are entirely different... "Such a great cloud of witness"... and "caught up together with them in the clouds" do not imply, interpret or even suggest in any way shape or form that they mean the same thing in any language

sure they do...coloquial greek...slang....descriptive wording...

when Christ comes, does every eye see Him ?
Does He Come with a large mass multitude ?
Does He Come Here to earth ?
Does He Land here on earth?

Matthew 24:29-30 (KJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

NO LARGE group here...

sadly, you forgot a few verses friend...how about the very next verse
Mat24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

sounds like a large group to me...
and a gathering aswell!!!! just like in 1Thes4

Mark 13:24-26 (KJV)
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. [26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Not here either... WAIT... you are using your interpretation of the “great power and glory” to get this interpretation...correct?

na, I'm using the very next verse in God's Word to get it,
just like above...
but you forgot it again...
so I'll show ya...again....

Mar13:27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

see?

a large multitude indeed...

here it is again in Rev19

Rev19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jesus does NOT need some massive entourage to do that, He can do all of that on His own and to interpret it the way you are... no wonder you believe what you do... you are clearly adding your OWN understanding to a basic understanding and making an interpretation based on what you personally believe...
I get it...

huh? just read above...
there is indeed a large multitude
that comes with Christ when He comes...
it's really not that difficult to understand

now, I was wondering if you ommitted those 2 verses Christ spoke,
(which show my point)
on purpose or by accident?
u probably just missed it...

Zeke37, when this is all over and dung with and we are standing on the right hand... one of us can allpologize or maybe we can just hang out and have a wonderful eternity...

hope so brother

It finally dawned on me why you are seeing what you are attempting to teach here... it is not what is written, but how one interprets what they see...

I see a cloud; you see a massive group of people...

I see a evidence of a seal being opened, you see some signal or sign...

since Jesus is the one opening the seals,
and the SEALS are SEALED into the Minds of the elect
I don't think they are events

but the trumpets are calls to action, in the Bible...

I see two people in the field and when one goes it is because they heard and did what Lord Jesus told them to and they go to a wonderful dinner, job well done (according to Lord Jesus)...

You see two people in the field, one goes and the one left here, has to still work (according to, I do not know why)...

because the one taken, is taken in deceit...
the one taken is the 5 virgins that did not have enough oil
the false Christ comes first to tempt the bride
turn virgins to whores

When the sign of Lord Jesus appears in the sky and His angels go around "harpazoing" where do they go?

Not back to the field, at least they don't do that according to the Word anyways

Thanks again

when Christ Comes, they are gathered together,
Not in Heaven
not to Heaven
But Here on earth....
seen with Him on Mt Zion in Rev14

now, whether they make a great spectical in the sky is debatable to some...
but not comepletely out of the question
plausable...

gotta get to Zion somehow...

the OT and NT agree with this...
the Messiah who is Christ, is Coming here and landing here on earth.