6 point proof for the post trib rapture

LonesomeTexan · #11 1st February 2008, 01:01 AM

eschatology is fascinating in all and I do believe we are indeed getting close to the end, but isn't kinda pointless to speculate on how/when it's going to happen?

HisdaughterJen · #12 1st February 2008, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by LonesomeTexan

eschatology is fascinating in all and I do believe we are indeed getting close to the end, but isn't kinda pointless to speculate on how/when it's going to happen?

Well, some would argue that it's about keeping watch.

Some of us are saying Jesus will appear to remove us unexpectedly to the place prepared for us prior to judgment and wrath.

Some claim to know exactly when Jesus will come and remove us - precisely at the end of the time period they refer to as the "tribulation".

Some are on the lookout for the anti-christ and expecting Jesus about 7 years later.

Others are on the lookout for Christ and expecting Him at any moment.

But the bottom line is that Jesus will put us where He wants us, when He wants us there. It doesn't really matter what we believe or what our understanding is of it nor does our understanding of it determine our salvation.

So, yeah, in a way, it's pointless and in a way, it's about digging for deeper understanding and keeping watch.

onwingsaseagles · #13 1st February 2008, 01:08 AM

1st thess 4:17 The we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

Originally Posted by ross3421

Does the above verse really mean that some do not die? Or rather are the alive and remain those which have been resurrected?
Welcome aboard.

Verse 16 says the dead rise first and then 17 says we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.

So it clearly makes a distinction between those that die and are resurrected and those that survive and are still alive and are raptured at the time of the resurrection.

Which is at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ..

zeke37 · #14 1st February 2008, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by zeke37

but the 144,000 are Christians who follow the Lamb where ever He goes...so we must include them....and they do survive(as every one else in jacob's trouble does), as they are Sealed of God and have a witness to complete.

Originally Posted by ross3421

They are the remnant of Israel for sure, are they Christians?

Yes they are Christians, they follow the Lamb where ever He goes....since Christ, God's election is completely Christian. Rev 14:1-5.

The scattered 10 northern tribes migrated into what has become the Christian nations (basically)

Now they do survive wrath but are they not still killed in the end?

Some believe that they are killed at the end...There is no doubt that there flesh bodies cease to exist....but there is also no doubt that they are changed into the spiritual body when He comes...avoiding death (sleep) as Paul teaches in 1cor 15....sleep is used literally dozens of times as meaning death...(sleep from life on earth)

Do we not see this remnant rising up from the graves in EZ 37?

Not in my opinion...what we see is the spiritually dead coming to spiritual life..., being sealed....coming to God for their part in Jacob's trouble. The end time events of Ez38 and 39 follow this sealing, not precede it...as the 4 winds speak of in Rev7. The sealing of the elect.

Yes it is appointed to all me to die....as a general rule for sure/....

but we know that Enoch was taken with out dying, and Elijah as well.....these are examples for the elect alive on earth during that time....

1Cor15 plainly states that we shall not all sleep...IOW, no waiting in heaven for those elect alive at His coming....just the change to the New Celestial Body, and Gathered to Christ for the Jerusalem touch down.

in His service
c

The above is debatable which I can show otherwise. Anyway are these not the two witnesses? Then they do die in the end.

some believe that they are....some believe that they are not....your reasoning is why I had always thought that they were the two witnesses...but unless God has placed them in a place other than heaven while waiting, I would have to disagree...because no flesh can inhabit heaven....and Satan cannot kill an angelic being....only God can do that in the Lake of Fire.

so I am leaning towards believing that they are two people from this age, empowered with truth, and used of God to fulfill that role.
incidentally, the two witnesses are two groups...one group is the Olive Trees (the individuals)
the second is the 2 Candlesticks, who remain in opposition to the Beast. The two candlesticks are the two churches Smyrna and Philadelphia

If is was plain then Paul would have said die and not sleep. Paul sure was confused as in the same chapter he writes otherwise.

to die, is to sleep from life on earth, which is supported dozens of times in scripture. A simple word search on sleep will settle that issue. Just another way to say die...but for us Christians, we know that we never really die, because after the flesh, we are alive in heaven and await the return to earth.

We shall not all sleep but we will awake in the grave upon hearing his voice and rise.

1co 11:29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.1co 11:30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Eph 5:14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1co 15:51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Mark

lets look at the thought passed on to relay what sleep is from and about in 1Cor15....

1Cor15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

when Christ gets here, all flesh is done away with forever. The elect won't feel the sting or pain of the death process, but will be changed to their Celestial body....and joint he dead in Christ with Jesus and be made IMMORTAL s well as incorruptible....

all other flesh will (IMO) feel it and see it and taste that change into celestial bodies...they get the incorruptible part, but not the Immortal part...they gotta overcome Satan at the end of the Millennium to make Immortality and live forever in Paradise.

so, those alive at the end of this age, when Christ comes back....will not die in the flesh and go to heaven to wait for life on earth again.......but rather they will immediately be changed to their celestial body and meet Christ and the other firstfruits.

I realize that we see things differently here, and I am quite willing to discuss these points....as long as we are cordial.

in His service
c

onwingsaseagles · #15 1st February 2008, 01:37 AM

Hewbrews 9:27 It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.

When this verse is read in context it is not saying all must die but that we will only die once and then we are judged.

It is not saying all must die but that we will not die twice or three time,we have once chance to live then we will be judged.

this verse is not saying that all men are deffently going to dies,the bible clearly states that we will not all die.

holdon · #16 2nd February 2008, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

I would think that if you would read 1 Thess 4:15-17 you would see that the believers go up to meet the Lord. That at least is what "will be caught up" means. The Lord first comes FOR His saints (to bring them to Him) in order to come WITH His saints in glory.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

The gathering of the elect concerns the people of Israel: they will be brought back from the ends of the earth where they were scattered. And since you say loosely "at that time" you don't seem to realize that it is AFTER Christ has already come, as so clearly stated in Mt 24 and Mk 13, so that it cannot apply to the saints coming WITH Christ in the preceding verses.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

The last trump of 1 Cor 15 has nothing to do with the one Mt 24. And as I said earlier the trump of Mt 24 will be heard AFTER Christ has come already, so that it cannot apply to the saints that come with Him.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

If you read Luke 17:37 you will see the answer as to where they will go: destruction. This is the reaping of the wicked, the judgment of the living and has nothing to do with the rapture of the believers!

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

The "last day" is not just one moment. The "last day" of Jn 5:24 is lasting already 2000 years! And Christ belongs to the first resurrection, so that "day" lasts already 2000 years as well....

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

No, Rev 20:4-6 does not say that the First resurrection is after the tribulation: does Christ not belong to the First resurrection? 1 Cor 15:23 says so. The First does not mean a specific time, but rather a quality.

zeke37 · #17 2nd February 2008, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by holdon

I would think that if you would read 1 Thess 4:15-17 you would see that the believers go up to meet the Lord. That at least is what "will be caught up" means.

not so, it means to be seized.....check out the Greek....

The Lord first comes FOR His saints (to bring them to Him) in order to come WITH His saints in glory.

not so, the ones that come with Him are the Dead in Christ......and the elect together are joined with Him as the firstfruits...the dead in Christ and the elect alive when He Appears/Comes

The gathering of the elect concerns the people of Israel:

the scattered tribes, not the Jews..(who crossed the Caucuses mountains and settled Europe and eventually the Western world.
Jews are not Christians for the vast majority........the elect are ALL Christians who follow the Lamb where ever He goes....from all 12 tribes, not just one tribe of Judah.

they will be brought back from the ends of the earth where they were scattered.

and from the ends of heaven...see the gospels.

And since you say loosely "at that time" you don't seem to realize that it is AFTER Christ has already come, as so clearly stated in Mt 24 and Mk 13, so that it cannot apply to the saints coming WITH Christ in the preceding verses.

huh? what is after Christ has already come?

The last trump of 1 Cor 15 has nothing to do with the one Mt 24.

sure it does, it is when Christ Comes back to the earth....forever and ever. After the trib of that time(Jacob's trouble)....not before as you errantly teach....

And as I said earlier the trump of Mt 24 will be heard AFTER Christ has come already, so that it cannot apply to the saints that come with Him.

How do you figure? Christ Comes AT the 7th trump that we hear in Mat24, not before or after but AT.

If you read Luke 17:37 you will see the answer as to where they will go: destruction. This is the reaping of the wicked, the judgment of the living and has nothing to do with the rapture of the believers!

there is a gathering/seizing/a catching to Christ...but it is not pre trib.

Those taken are taken in deceit....the flood of lies that comes from the mouth of the dragon...and their destination is not a pleasant one....while those that are spiritual virgins are left...(follow Satan as the pretend Christ, and you are a spiritual harlot/whore....which is what Satan will be play acting when he is cast from heaven to the earth. We are supposed to be chased virgins (spiritually) waiting for the groom to come.

since there is no pre trib gathering as you suppose, this is speaking of the end times when Christ Comes and separates those overcomers and those non-overcomers

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

the field is explained as the world...
the word eagles is actually vultures in the manuscripts...and it is not a good thing to have vultures eat your flesh....which is what will happen to those that get taken.....and pre tribbers say that this is them leaving the planet....lol. They are going to be taken alright...just not where they think. Taken by Satan's lies.

The "last day" is not just one moment. The "last day" of Jn 5:24 is lasting already 2000 years! And Christ belongs to the first resurrection, so that "day" lasts already 2000 years as well....

sure...but there is also a day that last 1000 years....that begins when He Comes/Appears.

No, Rev 20:4-6 does not say that the First resurrection is after the tribulation: does Christ not belong to the First resurrection? 1 Cor 15:23 says so. The First does not mean a specific time, but rather a quality.

it means any one that overcame, from Christ's time till He arrives again...app. 2000 years now...they are collectively the firstfruits....including Messiah.

certainly this is after(at) Christ arrives, isn't it?

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

for a believer, they get their new body either when he/she dies, or for those alive, when Messiah comes back and changes them into their celestial bodies....
all are alive and in heaven today with Bodies....not flesh but celestial bodies...not waiting for that body, but they already have it....the term resurrection is to life on earth again, as is promised....

hope this helps you a little holdon....your pre trib stance is dangerous, as it may lead you to accept the first Jesus you see(which will be Satan in disguise), instead of waiting for the true Messiah to appear after the trib of that time. Satan comes first, not Jesus, then Satan, then Jesus again...that is a very dangerous fantasy, and one that must be answered for if you teach it to others......

God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls....

in His service
c

holdon · #18 2nd February 2008, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by zeke37

not so, it means to be seized.....check out the Greek....

Caught away, or snatched up. That's what it means.

not so, the ones that come with Him are the Dead in Christ......and the elect together are joined with Him as the firstfruits...the dead in Christ and the elect alive when He Appears/Comes

No your completely wrong: the alive are caught up WITH the risen dead. 1Thess 4:16,17

the scattered tribes, not the Jews..(who crossed the Caucuses mountains and settled Europe and eventually the Western world.
Jews are not Christians for the vast majority........the elect are ALL Christians who follow the Lamb where ever He goes....from all 12 tribes, not just one tribe of Judah.

The elect in Mt 24 are Israelites. They will be brought back from where God scattered them. Christians were never scattered: they have no earthly land.

huh? what is after Christ has already come?

The gathering of the elect. [quote]
1. "and then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory;"
2. "and then shall he send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from end of earth to end of heaven." Mk 13.

How do you figure? Christ Comes AT the 7th trump that we hear in Mat24, not before or after but AT.

You show precisely that your theory doesn't work. Christ comes after the tribulation. And then (when He is come) He shall send out the angels with trumpet sound to gather the elect. Mt 24:31.

there is a gathering/seizing/a catching to Christ...but it is not pre trib.

Well it is....

HisdaughterJen · #19 2nd February 2008, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by holdon

1. "and then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory;"
2. "and then shall he send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from end of earth to end of heaven."

Mk 13.You show precisely that your theory doesn't work. Christ comes after the tribulation. And then (when He is come) He shall send out the angels with trumpet sound to gather the elect. Mt 24:31.

OHHHHH! Of course! Yes, he promises to bring them all back....!!!! Wow, cool!

You'd have to compare scripture to scripture to catch that.

There's a resurrection and catching away, followed by judgment and wrath which brings about the destruction of the ungodly when He comes with His angels. He gathers the elect of Israel and brings them all back to the land he promised them and rules from Jerusalem.

This is why the angels (harvesters) pull up the weeds and bundle them up to be thrown into the fire and then gather the wheat into the barn in that parable!

onwingsaseagles · #20 2nd February 2008, 04:29 PM

holden,the fact is we will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

The bible clearly tell us when this will be ''AT HIS COMING''which is after the tribulation is over.

The bible also states that we will be raptured ''AT THE LAST TRUMP''

Regardless if you believe it is the same as the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24 or not it can not be B4 that trump because it is THE LAST TRUMP.

Seeing how the trump in Matthew is after the tribulation and the LAST TRUMP is either that trump or after the trump in Matthew ''THE RAPTURE can not possibly be b4 the tribulation.

Not with a biblical view of the event.