You're incorrect about the inheritance of sin. We are all born in sin, spiritually dead. Numbers, I believe, makes reference to the sins of the father being visited upon the sons to the third and fourth generations.
If we did not inherit sin then there would be no need for us to seek salvation and Jesus could not have been tempted and overcome death.
We inherit the consequence of sin, not their sin. Nobody is born depraved. God doesn't create evil. Interesting parallel to the reality of corporate salvation, no?
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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First of all the word hell is not even in the original language of scripture; in fact it comes from pagan roots.
Well spotted. I use the word hell as that is in the vernacular these days. Hades and gehenna would be more appropriate.
The fire is spiritual in scripture is symbolic; especially in the Book of Revelation; and God's fire (pur)Gk) will purify not destroy.
Hmm, I don't recall saying destroy, myself. Symbolic or real... how can you claim to know either way? I'm just sharing what the Orthodox Church believes on the matter, though I am by no means the mouth piece or the best representative you'll find. If you don't like what my Church believes, that's not my concern.
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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Well spotted. I use the word hell as that is in the vernacular these days. Hades and gehenna would be more appropriate.
[color=black] Hmm, I don't recall saying destroy, myself. Symbolic or real... how can you claim to know either way? I'm just sharing what the Orthodox Church believes on the matter, though I am by no means the mouth piece or the best representative you'll find. If you don't like what my Church believes, that's not my concern.
I agree with you about Hades or Gehenna; let us use the proper words; and not something imported from pagan religions. But look at the word meaning; and stick to it.
How can I claim to know either way; easy look at God's Word; ignore religion.
1. The Book of Revelation is the only place in scripture where The Lake of Fire is mentioned. This book is the most spiritual book in all of scripture and is a book of spiritual symbolism; and is not literal. Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context. Notice the first verse, first chapter; so if you want to literalize half it; or all of it; show me the verse? I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning. Book of Revelations is the Revelation’s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.
Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. So the Lake of Fire actually is the Lake of Devine Purging. What is God’s Word saying what fire is; for get the literal; God is a spirit and His word is life not destruction. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.
I agree with you about Hades or Gehenna; let us use the proper words; and not something imported from pagan religions. But look at the word meaning; and stick to it.
How can I claim to know either way; easy look at God's Word; ignore religion.
Hmm, I wonder where you're going with this? Ponders...
1.
The Book of Revelation is the only place in scripture where The Lake of Fire is mentioned. This book is the most spiritual book in all of scripture and is a book of spiritual symbolism; and is not literal. Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context. Notice the first verse, first chapter; so if you want to literalize half it; or all of it; show me the verse? I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning. Book of Revelations is the Revelation’s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.
Eh? All I see are lots of people who claim they have the Holy Spirit helping them interpret this book, and it just isn't working too well. It is easily twisted or misinterpreted, which is why it isn't read from during Liturgy. Anyway, I'll go with what the Tradition of my Church has to say on the matter, considering you know, the Church Councils and the whole canon of scripture thing that came from them.
Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. So the Lake of Fire actually is the Lake of Devine Purging. What is God’s Word saying what fire is; for get the literal; God is a spirit and His word is life not destruction. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.
You know, things aren't ONLY spiritual, there is a physical element as well. Otherwise, the incarnation would have been completely unnecessary, you know, if everything was ONLY spiritual. I'm just wondering how you are so confident you've interpreted everything perfectly as the Judgment hasn't happened yet and you don't know from first hand experience what exactly has panned out as literal or spiritual.
Last of all Jesus is a savior; not a monster.
Um, okay. I'm wondering where you're getting from ANYTHING I wrote that he is a monster. You're either mistinterpreting everything I posted, or you have some pretty odd preconceived notions about Orthodox Christianity that don't hold water.
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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Hmm, I wonder where you're going with this? Ponders...[/font][/color]
Eh? All I see are lots of people who claim they have the Holy Spirit helping them interpret this book, and it just isn't working too well. It is easily twisted or misinterpreted, which is why it isn't read from during Liturgy. Anyway, I'll go with what the Tradition of my Church has to say on the matter, considering you know, the Church Councils and the whole canon of scripture thing that came from them.
[center] You know, things aren't ONLY spiritual, there is a physical element as well. Otherwise, the incarnation would have been completely unnecessary, you know, if everything was ONLY spiritual. I'm just wondering how you are so confident you've interpreted everything perfectly as the Judgment hasn't happened yet and you don't know from first hand experience what exactly has panned out as literal or spiritual.
Um, okay. I'm wondering where you're getting from ANYTHING I wrote that he is a monster. You're either mistinterpreting everything I posted, or you have some pretty odd preconceived notions about Orthodox Christianity that don't hold water.
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=black]I showed you scripture; and you show me man's tradition of religion; (what religion; there are thousands you dare mock the leading of the Spirit of truth?) You are just like the Jews in Jesus day. Show me the scripture to back your view; is all I asked; if not all you have is wood hay and stubble..
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Your religious God has no mercy and is a monster. Hitler and Stalin only killed millions; your god is going to torture billions forever and ever. Is this the same Jesus who told the women at the well; "go and sin no more"? Okkkkkkkkk
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=black]I showed you scripture; and you show me man's tradition of religion; (what religion; there are thousands you dare mock the leading of the Spirit of truth?) You are just like the Jews in Jesus day. Show me the scripture to back your view; is all I asked; if not all you have is wood hay and stubble..
You asked me to show you scripture? Where did that happen in this thread? You showed me your interpretation of scripture, not simply scripture. I simply shared with you what my Church believes. Holy Tradition is that faith that was traditioned to Christ's Holy Church. The Ecclesia is lead by the Holy Spirit, so I'm not mocking the Holy Spirit at all, but I am seriously questioning any individual who thinks that they have a special Holy Spirit connection when it comes to interpreting the holy scriptures. Where one man is fallible, Christ's Holy Church isn't.
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.
Your religious God has no mercy and is a monster. Hitler and Stalin only killed millions; your god is going to torture billions forever and ever. Is this the same Jesus who told the women at the well; "go and sin no more"? Okkkkkkkkk
You're so far off base, it's ludicrous. Orthodox aren't Calvininsts. Do yourself a huge favor and educate yourself on this topic before telling me what I believe again.
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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You asked me to show you scripture? Where did that happen in this thread? You showed me your interpretation of scripture, not simply scripture. I simply shared with you what my Church believes. Holy Tradition is that faith that was traditioned to Christ's Holy Church. The Ecclesia is lead by the Holy Spirit, so I'm not mocking the Holy Spirit at all, but I am seriously questioning any individual who thinks that they have a special Holy Spirit connection when it comes to interpreting the holy scriptures. Where one man is fallible, Christ's Holy Church isn't. [/font][/color]
[b][b]
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.
[font=Comic Sans MS]
You're so far off base, it's ludicrous. Orthodox aren't Calvininsts. Do yourself a huge favor and educate yourself on this topic before telling me what I believe again.
I do not believe in Holy traditions; first of all they are not holy; (show me the scripture); what makes your church holy; it would be better described as Baby-lon.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Great scripture; that is my point; with out it being in God’s Word it is wood, hay and stubble.; you are so blinded by your religion you could never find the truth.
So you do not believe in eternal torment (torture)?
Defend your old warn out religous teachings; ignor the scripture and the Holy Spirit that dwells with in you. I found fifty verses in the New Testament speaking of the new; not the old not the worn out wine skins; but new; here are thirty of those 50 that speak of the new. Is God Old; or is He New; no He is eternal; that is why God desires us to seek the new wine or revelation and not place them in the old wine skins of religion and tradition. I understand that many of you love the old traditions and you limit God to those traditions; but God is speaking by revelation not tradition.
Matthew 9:16-17No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mark 2:21No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
Mark 2:22And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Mark 16:18And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luke 5:37And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:37-39No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Luke 22:19 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Acts 17:20Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:3-5But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:5-7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
2 Corinthians 3:6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 6:15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ephesians 4:24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Hebrews 12:24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
I do not believe in Holy traditions; first of all they are not holy; (show me the scripture); what makes your church holy; it would be better described as Baby-lon.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Great scripture; that is my point; with out it being in God’s Word it is wood, hay and stubble.; you are so blinded by your religion you could never find the truth.
So you do not believe in eternal torment (torture)?
The Church existed before the New Testament. Were you aware of that? They had and still have Holy Tradition, of which the scriptures are an integral part. The New Testament would not exist if it wasn't for the Holy Tradition of the Ecclesia.
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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It's always interesting to see people use the holy scriptures and twist them around to mean something completely different. All of those doctrines of men, and each one thinking he has the Holy Spirit guiding him in his interpretations, regardless of the fact that all of those men often disagree. Intriguing how the Holy Spirit always agrees with their pre-existent beliefs and conclusions. I wasn't aware that God was the author of confusion. Salvation can only be found in Christ's Holy Church. The lone ranger scenario isn't the truth. The Church is the saving ark.
Originally Posted by Ben12
Defend your old warn out religous teachings; ignor the scripture and the Holy Spirit that dwells with in you. I found fifty verses in the New Testament speaking of the new; not the old not the worn out wine skins; but new; here are thirty of those 50 that speak of the new. Is God Old; or is He New; no He is eternal; that is why God desires us to seek the new wine or revelation and not place them in the old wine skins of religion and tradition. I understand that many of you love the old traditions and you limit God to those traditions; but God is speaking by revelation not tradition.
Matthew 9:16-17No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mark 2:21No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
Mark 2:22And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Mark 16:18And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luke 5:37And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:37-39No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Luke 22:19 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Acts 17:20Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:3-5But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:5-7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
2 Corinthians 3:6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 6:15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ephesians 4:24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Hebrews 12:24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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