C. Alan Martin

didaskalos · #**991** 20th February 2009, 04:03 PM

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But how can we presume to know that God's will for us is to be "healthy and prosperous"

It is not presumption. My question is how can you look a Jesus and still claim that you do not know the will of God? He showed us what it is.... exactly and completely. Why is it presumption to just believe in the Jesus revelation of God?
He has given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness. All the promises of God have been made yes and amen in Christ. What is there left to do but accept it?

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So there are verses that say God bore our sickness, that he healed us of our disease. Well, look at the entire Bible.

Of course we can look at the entire Bible. But again and again the word says that there are parts that are more 'weighty" than others. There are parts that pertain to us as born again believers and other parts that no longer pertain to us because of what Jesus did. We look at the whole Bible, but we rightly divide it. What happened to Job could never happen to a born again believer who is walking in the light of the word. The devil would have to defeat Jesus and cast Him out of Heaven... and that is not going to happen!

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Do all people who prayed and believed in God get healed?

OF course not. There were those who Jesus could not heal. Read that again... he COULD NOT do any mighty work of healing because of their unbelief.
Mark 6:5-6 ALT
5 And He was not able to do any miraculous work there, except having laid His hands on a few infirm [or, sickly] [people], He healed [them].
6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. And He was traveling around the villages in a circuit, teaching.

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Do some? Absolutely! Do those who pray and believe in God have God with them all the time? Absolutely.

Point is they are not believing... if they were they would receive. All who ask in faith will receive. That is an immutable law. It cannot be broken and there are no exceptions.

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Was Paul a "lesser" Christian since he wasn't healed of his sickness? Did he "miss the promise" by sin, doubt, or the devil"?

Well... in fact, yes. He was a rather prideful fellow by his own admission and so the devil (not God) recevied license to have a demon follow him around and buffet him. He was constantly under persecution and attack. He, BTW, was not sick. Nowhere does it say anything about being sick.

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What did he say...he said that God was allowing him to have that...

We need to stick with the facts. God did not say anything was being allowed. It was the devil doing it. Not God. It was a messager from satan... not from God. And it was not sickness... it was a demon who stirred up strife against him.

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He mentioned that "my strength is made strong in my weakness"

Ok.... what happens when the strenght is made perfect?

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Look at Job. God allowed Job to lose all his wealth. He allowed Job to lose his health. He allowed Job to lose his family.

Again. you are confusing God and the devil. The devil did these things, not God. But these things could never happen to a believer who is walking in the light. I can image the devil approaching Jesus at the throne after Jesus whooped him but good on resurrection day. I don' think the devil wants another whooping.

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The point is, he was faithful...and God rewarded him in the end.

When is "the end". If you are going to Job as an example, then follow through with it. Job suffered at most 8 or 9 months. Have you suffered this long? If so, get on with it. Job did not die and he did not suffer for a lifetime. He was totally healed and had everything restored 3(?) times over.

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We are going to be rewarded in the end for fighting in the race.

He already has. We are all rewarded with the benefits of the gospel when we diligently seek Him. The end has come. It happened when Jesus rose from the dead and the covenant was enacted. There is no need to wait any longer.

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I believe God is able and willing to heal me if he sees it as the best thing for me.

He does. He did it 2000 years ago. He displayed His will for you in Christ. All you have to do is start siding with Him.

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Do I want to be healed? Absolutely. Do I think God wants me to be healed? I KNOW he wants me to be spiritually healed, yet as God hasn't answered my prayers yes as of yet, I can only trust God to be either saying "wait" or "no."

If you believe that He wants you "spiritual healed"(whatever that is... I have never seen that term in the scriptures, I thought we were born again, not "spiritual healed") then you should also believe He wants you to prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.

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Is that a bad thing? No! God has helped me to trust in him so much through this. By no means am I saying he's neglecting me. I say that he is being so good to me, because I can feel his presence helping me get through every day. Therefore, I consider this trial to be a BLESSING from God.

It is commendable that you are willing to suffer howbeit in ignorance. He does not want you to suffer, but if that is the level of your faith and that is all you can do, then prasie God!

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Don't assume that all people who are sick consider God a child abuser,

Well, I did not exactly say that... but that is what it sounds like to me. If I refused to see to the needs of my children and even inflicted them with sickness, that is not only child neglect... it is child abuse. I realize that people who profess this are doing so in ignorance.... but it is sad non-the-less.

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and please, if you want, believe in the WoF beliefs, but please don't say that I'm sick because of my sin or lack of faith.

I will leave it to God and yourself to come to that conclusion. I only know that I must confess and be true to His word. If I have a choice between saying God is responsible for my sickness or that I have failed in some way.... I am going to say I am the one that failed. I will do that before I accuse my loving heavenly Father of such things just so I can feel better about my spiritual condition. I fail... God does not. I doubt, but God has promised. He is true. He loves me even if I fail. But I pray I never return to the place where I accuse Him just to justify myself.

didaskalos · #**992** 20th February 2009, 04:04 PM

Doctrine verses Faith

What you believe is not the same as what you mentally assent to. "Belief" is of the heart, while "mental assenting" is of the head.
Doctrines and teachings are of the mental sort. They are the outward "clothes" that our hearts wear. They are outward expressions of what the inward heart believes... but they often are a bit more fleshed out and colorful and sometimes even contrary than what is underneath.
We use the outward doctrinal clothing to communicate with each other in this mental realm of words, reasoning, and logic.
The man of the heart communicates with God.
Belief is a function of the real man, the heart.
Doctrines are the outward clothing or expression of that faith. So when you ask a question about what people "believe", be aware that some are going to respond with what they "think" (in their heads) rather than what they "believe" (in their hearts.)

Rom 10:17
(WNT) And this proves that faith comes from a Message heard, and that the Message comes through its having been spoken by Christ.

or my explanatory version:

"Faith comes by a revelation into your heart, and a revelation into your heart comes by Christ speaking a word into your heart."

What is my point in all this?
We can talk doctrine and teaching (the head stuff) all day. I suspect 90% of what gets booted back and forth here is just that. But how often do we talk about things that we share in the heart? Can you distinguish the difference between what you "believe" in your heart and the things that you merely "mentally assent" to? It is not as easy as it sounds.

Some ideas:
Since what we believe is a product of revelation from Christ, is it possible for our regenerate spirits to believe "lies"?
(I am not talking about mentally assenting to false teachings, I am talking about having lies believed in our hearts)
If not, is there scriptural evidence of this?
If in fact we cannot believe "lies", and the contents of our hearts are only those truths spoken into them by Christ, then: There is nothing in my heart that is contrary to anything in your heart. You may have things that I do not have, and I may have things that you do not have, but all the things we share in common are exactly the same.

If these things are true, then can we also use this function of the inner man as a built in truth detector?
Finally, if these things be true, then is it not a fact that all believers, regardless of doctrine (the head stuff) or denomination are in fact perfectly one in the beliefs of the spirit?

didaskalos · #**993** 20th February 2009, 04:05 PM

All disagreements originate at one or more levels below the current one. By this I mean that truth is made up or layers. A higher level concept is based on the assumption that all the lower level concepts it lays upon are true. Much like a stone building, all it takes is one misshapen stone to throw every layer of stone above it into a wider and deeper error.

Many of the discussions on these board become fruitless because all we are doing is shuffing and reshaping those upper level stones trying to get them to fit together when the real problem is at a lower, more fundamental level.

Now where did I leave my trowel??? >

didaskalos · #**994** 20th February 2009, 04:05 PM

Sometimes people behave outside of their inner nature. This is basically what happens when we sin. But it is also happens when we behave ourside of our faith.

I like the parable of the Compassionate Father (I know most people refer to it as the parable of the prodigal son). Jesus said that the young son who left and ended up with the pigs was not "being himself".

Luk 15:17
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

So while this young man was away from the father, he was not acting according to his true self, a state that commentators even consider "mad", "deranged", or otherwise "out of his head". I think this is what happens to us. We can come to ourselves like he did, realize we are feeding on pig food, and begin to act in accordance with who and what we really are.

So I think I am trying to say that some (many?) of us have the truth locked up inside us, but allow our outer nature (and in some cases, our outer religious doctrine) to get the best of us and lead us around. It is only when we are destitute (physically or spiritually) that we "come to our senses" and head home to Abba, the word, and our rights as believers.

didaskalos · #**995** 20th February 2009, 04:06 PM

Regarding the idea of using a "large enough breadth"
It is a common saying that goes:
"anyone can prove anything they want from the Bible"

This is true, and the opposite is held true by others:
"the Bible is so full of contradictions that it is impossible to know anything with certainty"

The problem does not stem from the lack of references, rather the problem stems from the weight you give them. At time the volume of references would seem to actually be part of the problem. The student must rightly divide the word. You can have a thousand references, but if you give one slant undue weight, then you end up with a skewed view. I am willing to say that 90% of the differences in the church world originate not because too few scriptures are being examined, rather it is because the incorrect scriptures are being given undue weight.
Paul illustrates this perfectly in Hebrews 5:

Hebrews 5:11-14 Webster
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need of one to teach you again which are the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong food.

Here we see believers whose error is not a lack of scriptures, rather they have lost sight of which teachings were the "first principles" or rudiments of Word. It was a matter of which scripture would be interpreted in the light of the other. The idea is that a building is being built, and unless the foundation is correct, the entire building will be skewed. It will not matter how correct the doors are set or how well the floors are leveled. Like these Hebrew Christians the foundation is wrong and everything that is built upon it is also going to be wrong.
Because they had the word incorrectly divided by priority, they needed to have someone come in and correct their priorities. Today we see believers interpreting NT gospel truth by what is written in the OT, even Job! We see people using the pre-law experiences of Job to overrule the NT promises that have been made good by the cross of Jesus. This I believe is the state of much of the modern church. They have their priorities in the Word incorrect. They look at Job (an other pre-gospel writings) and try and base their faith on those experiences with God instead of basing their faith on the revelation of God that has been given us by Jesus. We need to reprioritize. Are we following the man who did not even have scripture and use him as an example of the will of God for us? Or are we going to follow the NT, the gospel, and Jesus? You cannot do both. They do not agree. You cannot merge and twist them together into some warped mongrel doctrine and call that Christianity. The foundation of your doctrinal building will be so far out of kilter that you will never be able to believe God for anything. The doctrine and teaching you try to base on this hybrid "Job/Jesus" revelation of God will be full of fear, uncertainty, and lack. You are forced to either believe Job or believe Jesus. Which do you choose? Will you overrule Jesus with Job, or will you accept Jesus as what He is... the exact image of the Father's will and way?
Paul told the Hebrew believers that they had to forsake the OT law and rituals and put the NT first. What I am suggesting is that we need to forsake the OT revelation of God and put the Jesus revelation first. Failure to do this is why so many people are suffering and living the Job expedience. It is unto them according to their faith. They have what they say and believe.

didaskalos · #**996** 20th February 2009, 04:06 PM

If you provide people with a single reason to think this does not pertain to them personally and immedately, they will take it and it will become a doubt for them.
If we are going to believe, we have to start with the basic assumption that all the promises, benefits, and blessings default to yes for us. From there, if we do not walk in the reality of them, we can expand out and seek the answer why. But if we short circuit the process by assuming they are not personally and immediately true for all of us, then we are simply forfeiting them by default.
We are to believe first and formost that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. That is true regardless of whether we ever receive anything at all.

didaskalos · #**997** 20th February 2009, 04:07 PM

Call unbelief and little faith what it is!
Learn and deal with it!

Mat 13:58
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Mat 6:30
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

Mat 8:25-26
25 And his disciples came to [him], and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Mat 14:30-31
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth [his] hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Mat 16:8
8 [Which] when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Mar 16:14
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Mat 17:19-20
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mar 6:5-6
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed [them].
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Rom 4:19-21
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 11:20
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Heb 3:18-19
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:2
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

Heb 11:6
6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jam 1:5-7
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Belief most certainly is a factor in receiving from God. Some have gone to extremes, but for every one WoFer that goes to extreme in favor of God, there are 100 "mere theist" believers who deny the word, the promises, the body and the blood of the lord Jesus in unbelief.

didaskalos · #**998** 20th February 2009, 04:07 PM

1. If you present people with a thousand reasons why they should believe God for something and one reason why they should not... they will invariably go with the one reason they should not... and assume it is the one that applies to them. This is in regards to anything that we can believe God for. That one reason becomes the basis for a "doubt"... and all it takes is one. This is also why faith teachers seem to go overboard trying to eliminate that one reason why we would not receive from God. All it takes is one reason. Faith is a chain... one broken link renders it useless.
We have presented many times the reality that faith is not made up of reason. Faith that is based on reason always falls because of this "just one doubt" syndrome. Suggest to people that there may be a good and valid reason they are in poverty(or sickness or even unsaved) and they will not be able to escape it. It will be the doubt that overthrew faith. But if you present the word of God to them and let it become faith in their heart rather than their head... then even that seemingly valid reason will fade away.
2. For every one Christian who believes God for prosperity (or healing or any other blessing) and actually experiences it, there are a thousand who live in poverty, cannot pay bills, remain sick, defeated, and oppressed. There is no lack of doing without within the body of Christ. The people of God are eat up with it. They do not need to be talked into poverty or receive justification for it... they need a reason to believe God out of it. I am not talking about driving Mercedes or living in a mansion. I am talking having your needs met and being healthy enough to get up and go to work/church. I am talking about putting shoes on your kids feet and paying the light bill.
3. The OT makes clear that the people who keep the word of God in their heart would eat the good of the land, be blessed in every way they could be blessed, and would live free of all curses. It is inconceivable that the gospel which is said to be "a better covenant established upon better promises" would somehow deliver inferior results.
4. The prosperity teaching of the last 20 years is a response to the poverty teaching that has prevailed for 20 centuries. It sticks out like a sore thumb in a world that equates being poor with being holy. For every one teacher that says you can believe God for prosperity there are a thousand that teach poverty is next to Godliness and that to be well off is actually sinful. If being poor and sick were somehow signs of holiness, then the church is complete and we must be in the millennium.

didaskalos · #**999** 20th February 2009, 04:08 PM

Dreams

Down through the years I have thought off and on about a dream classification system based not on content but on origin. The first consideration when looking at any dream should be the source of that dream. It breaks down to something like this:

Sources of Dreams:

Spiritual: Divine Internal Demonic
Soul: Conscious Mind Unconscious Mind
Physical: Body Triggers

Descriptions:
(1) Dreams origination from "physical triggers"are those in which the dream is initiated or is seeded by events taking place in your physical body. Examples: You dream your arm is broken, and awake to find the circulation has been cut off from your arm and it has fallen asleep. You dream that you are hungry or thirsty and awake to find that you really are. You dream there is a fire and awake to the smell of smoke (hopefully from outside).
These dreams were all triggered by outside physical stimuli. Obviously one cannot place any significance to these sort of dreams.
(2) Dreams origination from mental or soul triggers will usually mirror some inner conflict, emotion, or stress taking place in your life. Examples: You are having money problems, and you dream all you money is on fire and you cannot put the fire out. You dream of something that happened early in your childhood. You dream a seemingly non-sense dream but awake in an emotional state of sorrow. You have a problem in your work or studies and dream a solution.
Again, these dreams involve your soul (mind, will, emotions) and while they may have significance to you personally, they likely would not have any significance to the church.
(3) Dreams originating from the Spiritual. I can only say that in my own personal experience dreams which originate from the Spirit have a distinct feel, reality, and clarity to them. While having these dreams, I am always fully aware that I am dreaming, that the dream is coming from God, and that the dream has some significance. Such dreams are actually more like visions, in that you are "conscious" (though asleep), and more aware of what is happening. Colors are usually very vivid and the images are very distinct and _seem_ to have a greater degree of clarity to them. It is difficult to explain, but the "reality" of these dreams will seem to be "more real than real", and upon waking, it seems that "waking reality" is less real than the dream. You may seem to be more conscious, aware, or focused while having the dream than when awake. There is a sense of being more a part of the dream reality. It is a part of you and you a part of it. Very often I will "wake up" immediately upon the end of these dreams. I occasionally feel like my body "woke up" a some point during the "dream" but did not become aware of my immediate physical surroundings until the "dream" was over. Sometimes these dreams will seem "staged" for my benefit: with actors, props, and script; sometimes on an immense scale.
Dreams originating from the demonic have some things in common with those from God, at least in their clarity and reality. But they always have some very disturbing aspects. Sometimes they effect you physically, such as taking away your breath, causing your heart to race, or a general feeling of unease and disorientation. The content of such dreams are often very dark, and sometimes there are no visual images at all. Sometimes there are words spoken, wicked laughter, or demonic sounds. In my experience they always carry a negative "feeling"; most frequently FEAR. Sometimes there is the "presence" of a demonic spirit in the dream or in the field of your awareness. I have felt the presence of some sort of "insanity incarnate". Down through the years I have trained my spirit to immediately "plead the blood of Jesus" in these dreams. Sometimes it is very difficult to wake up from these dreams, and only pleading the blood will get you out of them. I have not actually had one of these sort of dreams for some time. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy...

Dreams originating from the "internal" spirit of Christ in you are more difficult to explain and understand. Because the spirit of Christ in you is technically one with Christ, it is difficult to classify. Just as prophesying from the spirit of Christ in you is different from the Holy Spirit gift of prophecy, so to dreaming dreams from the spirit of Christ in you is different from dreams originating directly from God. It is very much like the difference between simple prophesying and charismatic prophesying. It must be said and understood that these dreams have no revelation in them any more than simple prophesying would. They are meant for "edification, comfort, and exhortation". You cannot understand these dreams apart from understanding your relationship and identification with Christ, and the relationship and identification of Christ with God. To some extent, this union and relationship is a mystery:

Eph:3:4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph:5:32: This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Col:4:3: Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
1Cor:8:6: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

We know that "in Him we live and move and have our being", and that " it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me". So while we acknowledge our union and identity with Christ, we are both mentally and spiritually prevented from saying "we are one with God, and therefore a part of God". Because we cannot say this, we must therefore say that dreams which originate from the spirit of Christ in us are technically not "from God" _in the same way_ as the dreams above. **We are one with God and Christ in nature and fruit bearing ability.** It must be understood that any dreams, "spiritual visions" or prophesyings proceeding from the spirit of Christ in us are the "fruit" of the spirit of Christ in us. The material coming from the spirit of Christ in us is from our "logosystem", or the Word that has been engrafted and revealed into our spirit by the Holy Spirit. Our spirit (the spirit of Christ in us) has autonomy. That means it can act on it's own. It can speak forth in tongues or prophesying. It can speak forth from faith and joy. It can draw from the material that has been implanted into it (by the Holy Spirit) and produce fruit. It can allow this "word of Christ" to "dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord". It can be moved by compassion and minister words of faith and power; all in direct proportion to the amount of faith present. So then it may also initiate dreams and spiritual visions that can reveal the mind of Christ in us _according to the material previously revealed to us by the Holy Spirit_.

didaskalos · #**1000** 20th February 2009, 04:09 PM

If you were to write a book that explained every aspect of God, salvation, and spiritual things down to the nth detail.... and if that book proved with indisputable scientific, legal, and logical facts concerning these things of which we speak.... and if you were to distribute this book into the hands of every person on the planet... and if every person on the planet were to read it and become fully convinced on a mental and logical level regarding these truths....:
That alone would not save a single person.
Because people are saved by faith, and faith comes by hearing Christ speak truth into the heart. The natural man (that is the man on the outside, or the soulish/mental man) does not receive the things of God so as to effect salvation in him. In fact the natural man cannot even perceive them. They defy rationalization and in fact cannot even be described by the tools of language and reason that are utilized by the natural man.
After all our efforts to make the gospel and spiritual truth palatable to modern man, he is still going to have to receive it as a child... that is: one who is barren of the logical and mental support structures with which we attempt to prop up and for which we desire to make the truth digestible to our mental man.