What was not there before the fall?

consol · #1 17th January 2008, 03:20 PM

Creationists believe that before the fall there was no death,
so animals that lived on meat, either did not exist or ate grass,
and Fungi or flies would not have been around, (no dead trees, plants or dead anything)

Animals, insects or fish did not breed, plants did not have seeds,
because if there was no death there would not be room for them all,
if every egg that was laid survived, the earth would be full in one year, (by butterflies alone)
if every Mackerel egg survived, the sea would be full of Mackerel, which means the water would cover the land.

Which means it's all nonsense.

LittleNipper · #2 17th January 2008, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by consol

Creationists believe that before the fall there was no death,
so animals that lived on meat, either did not exist or ate grass,
and Fungi or flies would not have been around, (no dead trees, plants or dead anything)

Animals, insects or fish did not breed, plants did not have seeds,
because if there was no death there would not be room for them all,
if every egg that was laid survived, the earth would be full in one year, (by butterflies alone)
if every Mackerel egg survived, the sea would be full of Mackerel, which means the water would cover the land.

Which means it's all nonsense.

Well, let's face reality. There is no marriage in heaven. GOD provided Adam with a help meet; however, there is no saying they wouldn't have had any children. GOD may have limited births; however, it is very possible that there were no births until after the Fall. Prior to the Fall, there would be no need for replenishment. It would seem that GOD didn't place plants on the same level as other living things. See you are too fast to jump. You have not really thought it through. There are many possibilities and the Bible does provide some interesting food for thought. I am not sure exactly what level insects played. But again, if the ecology was perfect, many things would be different. Insects likely tended to the plants and groomed both the plants and animals.

Molal · #3 17th January 2008, 04:52 PM

I have often wondered how being a vegetarian circumvented the no death interpretation?

Clearly, eating a carrot is killing the carrot.

Soul Searcher · #4 17th January 2008, 05:50 PM

According to Genesis 1 there is a very strong implication of all creatures reproducing, plants bearing seed, and even a statement of be fruitfull and multiply and replenish the earth.

What there is not is any indication that death did not exist. The notion that death did not exist is just something made up later by people.

consol · #5 18th January 2008, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by LittleNipper

Well, let's face reality. There is no marriage in heaven. GOD provided Adam with a help meet; however, there is no saying they wouldn't have had any children. GOD may have limited births; however, it is very possible that there were no births until after the Fall. Prior to the Fall, there would be no need for replenishment. It would seem that GOD didn't place plants on the same level as other living things. See you are too fast to jump. You have not really thought it through. There are many possibilities and the Bible does provide some interesting food for thought. I am not sure exactly what level insects played. But again, if the ecology was perfect, many things would be different. Insects likely tended to the plants and groomed both the plants and animals.

It's now obvious to everyone on this forum that you will say anything and twist everything
in order that it might fit in with your ideas of how your religion should be,
you are a disgrace to the Christian religion. (unless they are ALL like you)

And I don't need to think it through, it's only a story, it's only a story, it's only a story.
(The people who got to you should be locked up)

Originally Posted by Soul Searcher

According to Genesis 1 there is a very strong implication of all creatures reproducing, plants bearing seed, and even a statement of be fruitfull and multiply and replenish the earth.

What there is not is any indication that death did not exist. The notion that death did not exist is just something made up later by people.

So what you are really saying, is that people can read it which ever way they want,
and can make it mean what ever they want.

I understand that religion is only in the mind of the believer, and everyone uses it as they see fit,
but the problems start when people begin to believe the bible is true, and think it's fact,
when anyone with 9 cents worth of brain knows it's just a story, and not a story to be taken seriously.

Why does everyone insist on adding or removing or giving different meanings to words in the bible?
do they find it that easy to fool themselves?

dad · #6 18th January 2008, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by consol

Creationists believe that before the fall there was no death,

Not for man, and some things.

so animals that lived on meat, either did not exist or ate grass,

Ate grass, as they do in heaven.

and Fungi or flies would not have been around, (no dead trees, plants or dead anything)

Flies, and mosquitoes, I hope not.

Animals, insects or fish did not breed,

Of course they did.

plants did not have seeds,

Yes they did.

because if there was no death there would not be room for them all,

Where? In some rinky dink garden? Who cares? The idea was to spread out! It is a big universe, this one, not to mention others.

if every egg that was laid survived, the earth would be full in one year, (by butterflies alone)

So, who says that the same number were laid then? And, since birds were in Eden, that wasn't that many eggs anyhow. You know, birds up north lay more eggs than ones far south? So I hear. All depends on the need.

if every Mackerel egg survived, the sea would be full of Mackerel, which means the water would cover the land.

If there were only 2 people, how many mackerel were there?

Which means it's all true.

CACTUSJACKmankin · #7 18th January 2008, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by LittleNipper

Well, let's face reality. There is no marriage in heaven. GOD provided Adam with a help meet; however, there is no saying they wouldn't have had any children. GOD may have limited births; however, it is very possible that there were no births until after the Fall. Prior to the Fall, there would be no need for replenishment. It would seem that GOD didn't place plants on the same level as other living things. See you are too fast to jump. You have not really thought it through. There are many possibilities and the Bible does provide some interesting food for thought. I am not sure exactly what level insects played. But again, if the ecology was perfect, many things would be different. Insects likely tended to the plants and groomed both the plants and animals.

the ecology can only be perfect if there is an infinite energy source. plants can convert sun energy into food energy that animals can use but the plants still need to replenish themselves. Unless you are going to claim that the 2nd law was not in place yet, which would cause so many problems that you really dont want to go there, there is still death and there is still reproduction before the fall.

AV1611VET · #8 18th January 2008, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by consol

What was not there before the fall?

Universal entropy.

Blackmarch · #9 18th January 2008, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by consol

Creationists believe that before the fall there was no death,
so animals that lived on meat, either did not exist or ate grass,
and Fungi or flies would not have been around, (no dead trees, plants or dead anything)

Animals, insects or fish did not breed, plants did not have seeds,
because if there was no death there would not be room for them all,
if every egg that was laid survived, the earth would be full in one year, (by butterflies alone)
if every Mackerel egg survived, the sea would be full of Mackerel, which means the water would cover the land.

Which means it's all nonsense.

THe Bible does not say what was before or outside of eden therefore there could be anything.

Soul Searcher · #10 18th January 2008, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by consol

So what you are really saying, is that people can read it which ever way they want,
and can make it mean what ever they want.

Well that's not what I was saying but it is true that people do seem to make it mean what they want. That does not make them right though.

I understand that religion is only in the mind of the believer, and everyone uses it as they see fit,
but the problems start when people begin to believe the bible is true, and think it's fact,
when anyone with 9 cents worth of brain knows it's just a story, and not a story to be taken seriously.

Why does everyone insist on adding or removing or giving different meanings to words in the bible?
do they find it that easy to fool themselves?

People add, ignore, reinterpret often to try and make the whole thing tie together in a way that makes some sense to them. One of the biggest problems is when they go into assuming that everything in there must be correct and then start changing the meaning to make the contradictions go away.