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View Poll Results: Did this post cause you curiosity in the (Authentic) Netzarim?
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  #1  
Old 13th May 2004, 10:53 PM
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Idea Authentic Netzarim (Nazarenes)

True authentic Netzarim (Nazarenes) follow the teachings of the pharasaic Ribi Yehoshua ben Yosef of the 1st Century, as cited by the late Oxford Historian James Parkes and in extant manuscripts of the ancient historian Eusebius. Authentic Netzarim talmidim(Nazarene students), recognized by the official Netzarim Beit Din (Nazarene Court) based in Israel, follow (Orthodox) Jewish halacha and are authorized by the Head Rabbi of Israel.

All other "Netzarim/Nazarene" groups are imposters and indentity thieves and have no legitimate claim to the title of being a Netzarim, Netzarim Talmid, Netzarim "Jew", etc. These groups distance themselves from the very authority that Ribi Yehoshua taught one to be under; ergo (Orthodox) Judaism, as was continuous from Moshe (Moses) to this very day in his written and oral (mishpatim) Torah.

If you are sincerely interested, please respond. Thank you.
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  #2  
Old 13th May 2004, 11:16 PM
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Which Netzarim group do you belong to? There are a few who claim that banner today.

curious,
Yafet
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  #3  
Old 14th May 2004, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by simchat_torah
Which Netzarim group do you belong to? There are a few who claim that banner today.

curious,
Yafet
The authentic, Israel based Netzarim, as blessed by the Head Rabbi of Israel
our website: www(dot)netzarim(dot)co(dot)il
(a complete url link couldn't be made, do to my "new user" status here at CF)

Could you please cite what other "Netzarim" groups and also cite the evidence where they state they are blessed by the (Orthodox) Head Rabbi of Israel? Thank you.
  #4  
Old 14th May 2004, 01:49 AM
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The authentic, Israel based Netzarim, as blessed by the Head Rabbi of Israel
our website: www(dot)netzarim(dot)co(dot)il
(a complete url link couldn't be made, do to my "new user" status here at CF)

Could you please cite what other "Netzarim" groups and also cite the evidence where they state they are blessed by the (Orthodox) Head Rabbi of Israel? Thank you.

#1) There is no "Head Rabbi of Israel".

#2) There is no direct connection/link to the first century Netzarim. The last the Netzarim were heard of in history was the 13th Century. Groups like yours and Trimm's are simply self-proclaimed revitalizations of the Netzarim. Anyone can call themself Netzarim as there is no Beit Din, nor was there a successional Beit Din from Ya'acov to any Netzarim self-proclaimed group today.

#3) The group you are referring to is led by a gentile, while a rather intelligent man, who is a self-proclaimed convert (Yirmeyahu Ben-David aka: Clint Van Nest) who decieves people stating he is Jewish.

#4) A few years ago, I myself was seeking after the truth behind the Netzarim expression. While I still feel the original Netzarim were of perfect faith, those who adhere to this movement today are questionable at best... ranging from Van Nest to Trimm. When I was on my quest to find the one true expression of the Netzarim, I came across http://www.netzarim.co.il/
I was so excited, I (innocently) went directly to the head Rabbi at Jews for Judaism and asked if the claim on the website was true. Were they really the only messianic organization recognized halachically by the Orthodox Beit Din?
This Rabbi was rather shocked and ended up making several phone calls to Israel to discuss this issue with varioius Beit Din members (including the Nassi at the time). It turns out that there is absolutely no validity to the websites claim. The Orthodox Beit Din in Israel was so upset by this claim that last I heard they were pursuing this matter in court to have the claim removed from the website.
I have followed through with this a few times through the years and have only ended in headache. This group is dangerous at best, deceptive at heart, and absolutely nothing like the original Netzarim of Derech HaShem.

Could you please cite what other "Netzarim" groups and also cite the evidence where they state they are blessed by the (Orthodox) Head Rabbi of Israel?

a) There isn't a single Messianic Beit Din in operation today (including the Netzarim you refer to).
b) No Messianic congregation or sect is recognized by any Orthodox Beit Din (including the Netzarim you refer to).

Please take my words to heart. If you are serious about following a true Judaic expression, I highly reccomend seeking out a Jewish synagogue, study Torah, and not chase after every wind of doctrine.

Shalom,
Yafet
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  #5  
Old 14th May 2004, 01:52 AM
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If I am not mistaken, there are a few others on this very forum who have had run ins with the Netzarim. If there are any of you out there, let us hear your stories.

However, if I am mistaken, and no one here has heard of them.... I shall ask my friend BrookLaw to either come and share her encounters (she visited them in Israel) or to allow me to post for her. Many of you know BrookLaw from various theology forums on the WWW.

shalom,
yafet
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"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice."
-- Albert Einstein (my hero)

"Those who love the Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." -Tehillim (psalms) 119:165


  #6  
Old 14th May 2004, 03:19 AM
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I knew the minute I saw this thread it was someone from netzarim.co.il, there is however, no netzarim beit din, and netzarim.co.il is not recognised under the banner of Judaism by the official Orthodox Judaism one there either. Infact Conservative and Reform are not official sects of Judaism according to the Orthodox Beit Din, they are still Jews but are outside Judaism. In a way I would agree and in a way I would not.

Actually Goose I was very excited when I first read that site only to find it was a hoax, it had seemed at first almost too good to be true. And it was. A Netzarim group who arent affiliated with James Trimm, who claim to be recognised by the official Beit Din, who and who follow Torah in its fullness. Infact had they not made the erroneous claim that they were accepted by Orthodox judaism, and had my good friend Yafet not known someone who went to their congregation and said it was identical to a church, I would have considered it.

BTW Yafet, there is a Chief Rabbi for the Ashkenazi and there is a Chief Rabbi for the Sephardim. Im not sure if "head" and "chief" are used to mean the same thing here.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
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  #7  
Old 14th May 2004, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by simchat_torah
#1) There is no "Head Rabbi of Israel".

The Chief Rav at the the time was Rav Mordecai Eliyahu who is well accepted by Askenazim and Sephardim. I'm holding in my hands a photocopy of the very letter of the blessing.

#2) There is no direct connection/link to the first century Netzarim. The last the Netzarim were heard of in history was the 13th Century. Groups like yours and Trimm's are simply self-proclaimed revitalizations of the Netzarim. Anyone can call themself Netzarim as there is no Beit Din, nor was there a successional Beit Din from Ya'acov to any Netzarim self-proclaimed group today.
That's untrue. Ancient historian Eusebius states quite clearly the succession and extermination of the Netzarim Beit Din and its 15 Paqidim, and dates it around 3rd Century.

The letter from the Chief Rav of the time shows the blessing of Yermiyahu. And thereby we are shown to have, and continue to have, a good standing. Albeit highly contraversial, but only do to baseless assertions. Stating that the Rav didn't know what he was blessing, is accusing the Rav of ignorance and ineptitude and totally false. Going against the blessing of the Rav and attacking the authentic Netzarim is baseless and goes against Torah.


#3) The group you are referring to is led by a gentile, while a rather intelligent man, who is a self-proclaimed convert (Yirmeyahu Ben-David aka: Clint Van Nest) who decieves people stating he is Jewish.
That's a baseless lie. Yermiyahu ben-David underwent an orthodox conversion via an orthodox Rabbi and is a Jew in good standing. He made Aliyah to Israel in the 80's. He sits on the board of the Yemeni K'nesset, Moreshet Avot in Ra'anana, Israel. If you feel so inclined, you can go to the Netzarim website, where all his identification information is made available for a small fee, as well as the letter from the Chief Rabbi of the time.



#4) A few years ago, I myself was seeking after the truth behind the Netzarim expression. While I still feel the original Netzarim were of perfect faith, those who adhere to this movement today are questionable at best... ranging from Van Nest to Trimm. When I was on my quest to find the one true expression of the Netzarim, I came across [edited, or else I can't post - Goose]
I was so excited, I (innocently) went directly to the head Rabbi at Jews for Judaism and asked if the claim on the website was true. Were they really the only messianic organization recognized halachically by the Orthodox Beit Din?
This Rabbi was rather shocked and ended up making several phone calls to Israel to discuss this issue with varioius Beit Din members (including the Nassi at the time). It turns out that there is absolutely no validity to the websites claim. The Orthodox Beit Din in Israel was so upset by this claim that last I heard they were pursuing this matter in court to have the claim removed from the website.
I have followed through with this a few times through the years and have only ended in headache. This group is dangerous at best, deceptive at heart, and absolutely nothing like the original Netzarim of Derech HaShem.
Kol haKavod for your checking, but to my knowledge your actions, or I should say of the beit din you speak of, were baseless and fruitless. Blessings from the Rav of the time are still referred to, regarded and diseminated from the Netzarim.



a) There isn't a single Messianic Beit Din in operation today (including the Netzarim you refer to).
We don't refer to ourselves as "Messianics", so I'm not sure on how to answer that. If by Messianic, you mean RAMBAM 13, then it's the (Orthodox) Netzarim Beit Din, based in Ra'anana, Israel.

b) No Messianic congregation or sect is recognized by any Orthodox Beit Din (including the Netzarim you refer to).
Again, another baseless assertion.


Please take my words to heart. If you are serious about following a true Judaic expression, I highly reccomend seeking out a Jewish synagogue, study Torah, and not chase after every wind of doctrine.
Kol haKavod for your search, and you have an open ear from me. But your claims are baseless. If I were to take baseless assertions to heart, then I would be little different then haNotzrim.
  #8  
Old 14th May 2004, 04:01 AM
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Simchat and Hix,

Thank you all for your open ears, but I need proof, not baseless assertions. Todah.
  #9  
Old 14th May 2004, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Goose
where all his identification information is made available for a small fee
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  #10  
Old 14th May 2004, 10:26 AM
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Your Honour Paqid Adon Goose,

Several months ago I visited your online Village. I did not buy any souviniers because I did not appreciate its overall tone, which I found to be insistent and angry: indicators of backwater truth.

You are new to MJ. We have our own Paqid and informal Beit Din, presided over by Yafet, the Joy of Torah and Hix, the Irish Flame. Listen to them.

I hope you come here often. We are desperately in need of more Jews. I assume you are Jewish by your faith icon.

Shalom

Last edited by Toney; 14th May 2004 at 11:34 AM. Reason: qualification.
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