The Nicene Creed is entirely scripture (with exception of Filioque - another thread another day) and was formulated to help define what is and is not Christian due to the Arian heresy.
That's pretty much most of it in a nutshell.
(sorry if I missed anything - just skipped most of the thread up until this point)
Greetings in the Name of Jesus:
I find this post Strange, and its supposition, pretty self serving, for Nicene creed precept of man statements believers.
When do scriptures stop and Creeds begin? would not, if its all scriptures: Nicene, would it not then be Scriptures, and not a Creed?
And I find commenting further, by me is impossible without sound insulting and condescending in nature. Which would be a form of evil by me, for the post was of sincere nature, with honesty and faith therein, which I cannot disrespect that; or the speaker.
I would like interject a Jewish root Church concept, for members to consider.
In a Jewish Church, where Jesus also spoke: only the words of God were spoken and read, No discourse in interpretations; or denominations in Jewish Church: A Jewish Church is where men Gather to Hear God, which is reading the word.
Now out side, and later men would discuss the meanings and have opinions, Which Opinions varied and there were many, But there was One Jewish Church and Temple. There were not separation on Interpretations. And the different interpretations were contain still in one Church. Men separated not by Interpretation. for they knew they could be wrong.
Now this is our Jewish rooted concept; where People Hear God, and decided for themselves what it meant, also hearing all opinion out side after Gods words were read. Considering all.
That preserved Man to God relationship by the word alone!
Now today, The concept of 200-300 different denominations teaching as truth their Human interpretations, fulfills the prophecy of " the Bind leading the blind" a truth of Life after Judaism.
There is Only one word of God: which all men can receive wisdom in, in measure.
Are Christians claiming the divisions and Multi dimensional and varied denominations are Gods will or beneficial, or wisdom is divided?
My spiritual discernment of these 300 different, in interpretation denominations would be. That God has Not 300 different truths. And of Gods One truth, then 299 of 300, must not be of Gods One truth. And also, it could be all 300 who have erred. I reserve one as Possible.
I believe we Christians are the Grafted onto Gods vine, the Wild Grapes of His vineyard: in quoting parables. But I am happy with Grafted Status, and thankful for salvation. I strive for Gods truth, not mans desires of God to be.
But the promise is Jesus will return to Jerusalem, and gather back the Jews. and Establish his Kingdom through Israel; and Our 300 different precepts of men, will be no more. That is, what scriptures tell me anyway, in my lowly opinion.
I pray my words do not offend, or deleted, God bless all Christians in form, and Atheist and Non Nicenes also.
In the early 4th century, a heretic named Arius taught that Christ was not God nor the Son of God, but merely some creature.
Long story short, the theologians and clergy of the day met in Nicea and discussed a solution to the problem of heresy. In the end, they determined that Christ was both Man and God and formulated the Nicene Creed. Each line of the Creed is Scripture (Filioque part is debatable) and the Creed states what is and is not Christian.
The Creed did not replace Scripture. Never has and never shall.
Knowing why the Creed was formulated is important to knowing not only its purpose but also its function.
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The One True Old Posters of the Genuine Ancient Way in Exile From Christian Forums Resistance in Communion with Baklavas Synod in Exile Abroad
Many years ago, a friend of the family (my family seemed to follow him, but I didn't) quoted Jesus Himself as saying, "Deify Me not, for I am not God, nor am I the Son of God." Supposedly this man, a self-titled "guru" who would tell you who you had been in a past life, discovered that "text" while in seminary and used it as a reason to drop out. Of course I have scoured the Bible through and through and was unable to find it anywhere. It looks as if it may have come from Arius, since the words you said and the words that man said are almost identical. Again thank you.
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I find this post Strange, and its supposition, pretty self serving, for Nicene creed precept of man statements believers. When do scriptures stop and Creeds begin? would not, if its all scriptures: Nicene, would it not then be Scriptures, and not a Creed?
It's not that complicated. A Creed is merely a summary of basic Bible precepts. The truth of the Creed is in whether or not the statements actually do align with the Bible or not. If I say that I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the world who died on the Cross for us and that he will come again, that's a Creed. Although the exact words may have been arranged by a man, myself, it's true if the Bible supports it.
If we say that we subscribe to the Creed, it doesn't mean that we consider it equal to the scriptures, just that we agree that what it states is Biblical. Many churches, by the way, have statements of principle or include a summary of faith as part of their constitutions, etc. and these are not generally called "Creeds," but they amount to the same thing.
Albion, I agree. I belonged to a number of protestant churches before converting to Catholicism and they all had their own statement of faith. Each one was a little different but the essence was the same. But try to ask the members what they believe and more often than not they can't put it into concise words. (Me included). I never heard of the Nicene Creed until the Catholic church. I like the Creed (or statement of faith, if you will). It is concise and based on Scripture.
I wonder whether some of the difficulties here are caused by the semi-manichean assumption that things that are 'of man' are in some way 'evil'?
For Orthodox and Catholic Christians (and other Apostolic Churches I suspect) the Creeds are not 'man made' in the sense that they come merely from men. They are th product of the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and minds of the bishops and theologians at Nicaea and, as Albion rightly says, they are scriptural.
What surprises me is that some people seem to think that they can read the Bible inerrantly by the light of their own enlightenment, and yet seem to deny that the same could have been true for the God-inspired bishops. Is this part of the Protestant faith that the Church was in some way immediately corrupted? Is this belief compulsory for Protestant?
I wonder whether some of the difficulties here are caused by the semi-manichean assumption that things that are 'of man' are in some way 'evil'?
For Orthodox and Catholic Christians (and other Apostolic Churches I suspect) the Creeds are not 'man made' in the sense that they come merely from men. They are th product of the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and minds of the bishops and theologians at Nicaea and, as Albion rightly says, they are scriptural.
What surprises me is that some people seem to think that they can read the Bible inerrantly by the light of their own enlightenment, and yet seem to deny that the same could have been true for the God-inspired bishops. Is this part of the Protestant faith that the Church was in some way immediately corrupted? Is this belief compulsory for Protestant?
In peace,
Anglian
Good point, Anglian. That assumption may in fact be the basis of some people's thinking... but I've never heard of anyone claiming it. My guess would be that it's an unconscious assumption. If so, it isn't one that I share. And for that matter, since some Protestant denominations embrace creeds such as the Nicene, it couldn't be common to all of Protestantism.
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I wonder whether some of the difficulties here are caused by the semi-manichean assumption that things that are 'of man' are in some way 'evil'?
For Orthodox and Catholic Christians (and other Apostolic Churches I suspect) the Creeds are not 'man made' in the sense that they come merely from men. They are th product of the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and minds of the bishops and theologians at Nicaea and, as Albion rightly says, they are scriptural.
What surprises me is that some people seem to think that they can read the Bible inerrantly by the light of their own enlightenment, and yet seem to deny that the same could have been true for the God-inspired bishops. Is this part of the Protestant faith that the Church was in some way immediately corrupted? Is this belief compulsory for Protestant?
In peace,
Anglian
Maybe this can be explained by reference to what you wrote above. While I am not on the side of those who think that anything written by men -- such as any Creed -- is necessarily encroaching upon scripture or opposed to it, I also don't agree to what you wrote (in red and green above).
While Catholic and Eastern churches DO consider the writers to have been guided by the HS in writing what they did, there is no good reason to suppose that they really were. I'd say that the writers essentially summarized relevant Bible teachings and that, beyond this, the likelihood of them having been correct is little better than for anyone else reading and interpreting the Bible--a possibility that you forcefully rejected in the blue part above.
It is probably this claim (that men who write Creeds are somehow infallible when doing so) that leads some, but not all, Protestants to distrust Creeds in general, especially the historic ones such as the Nicene Creed.
Last edited by Albion; 31st January 2008 at 11:21 AM.
How about, instead of discussing a general distrust of the creed, if someone doesn't agree with any specifics or particular passages, those be discussed?
Lets start with the seemingly most obvious phrase.
"I believe in one Holy catholic and apostolic Church"
Notice the "c" in catholic is not capitalized (for a reason)
cath·o·lic (kth-lk, kthlk)
adj.
1. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: "The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found" Scientific American.
2. Including or concerning all humankind; universal: "what was of catholic rather than national interest" J.A. Froude.
3. Catholic
a. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.
n. Catholic
A member of a Catholic church, especially a Roman Catholic.
[Middle English catholik, universally accepted, from Old French catholique, from Latin catholicus, universal, from Greek katholikos, from katholou, in general : kat-, kata-, down, along, according to; see cata- + holou (from ; see sol- in Indo-European roots).]
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