What makes it real for you?

Idea · #1 13th January 2008, 04:49 PM

Real – personal experience, not out of a book, or from someone else’s experience… for God has no grandchildren – only sons and daughters. There is no such thing as borrowed light…

There are levels of understanding:

-don’t know that you don’t know

-know that you don’t know – but only seek for faith – do not seek for personal revelations, companionship of the Holy Spirit, visions, or visits from angels. Think this is a thing of the past, and does not happen anymore.

- know that you don’t know – are not satisfied with just believing, want personal manifestations, think others have had them, want to have them yourself. Fast, pray, study, repent, work, make covenants to find if it is real.

- Know

18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day.
(Book of Mormon | Alma22:18)

What kind of knowledge do you seek?

What kind of knowledge do you have?

Catholic Dude · #2 13th January 2008, 05:14 PM

Im not exactly sure what you are asking, but in response to your last question, as a Catholic I would say the knowledge I seek and have is founded on two principles: Faith and Reason.

Faith is first and foremost a gift of God which enables you to look past the physical world and realize there is more to it. Reason is also a gift, but is a part of who man is, made in God's image means we have rational souls and can think/reason.

For example here is an example of the reasoning why I would say I accept the Catholic Church:
1)Jesus is not a failure.
2)Jesus established His Church 2000 years ago.
3)If Jesus is not a failure then His Church must have survived the ages and still exist to this day.
4a)One of the few groups openly claiming they have lineage that goes all the way back is the Catholic Church.
4b)On the flip side, any group that says the Church Jesus established fell away at any time is calling Jesus a failure.

Asinner · #3 13th January 2008, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Idea

Real – personal experience, not out of a book, or from someone else’s experience… for God has no grandchildren – only sons and daughters. There is no such thing as borrowed light…

Receiving the Eucharist.

There are levels of understanding:

-don’t know that you don’t know

-know that you don’t know – but only seek for faith – do not seek for personal revelations, companionship of the Holy Spirit, visions, or visits from angels. Think this is a thing of the past, and does not happen anymore.

- know that you don’t know – are not satisfied with just believing, want personal manifestations, think others have had them, want to have them yourself. Fast, pray, study, repent, work, make covenants to find if it is real.

- Know

We should seek the acquisition of the Holy Spirit above all else. We should not seek signs.

18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day.
(Book of Mormon | Alma22:18)

You are a Mormon? I was wondering.

What kind of knowledge do you seek?

We don't seek knowledge in Orthodoxy.

What kind of knowledge do you have?

That I am a sinful and unworthy servant.

Love,
Christina

Idea · #4 13th January 2008, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude

Im not exactly sure what you are asking, but in response to your last question, as a Catholic I would say the knowledge I seek and have is founded on two principles: Faith and Reason.

Faith and reason do not make it real. Real is something you touch, you see, you experience. Something that happens to you personally, not something that you read happening to another person.

From a prophet:
“Perhaps you may be surprised at this assertion, that I should say for the salvation of his creatures in these last days, since we have already in our possession a vast volume of his word which he has previously given. But you will admit that the word spoken to Noah was not sufficient for Abraham, or it was not required of Abraham to leave the land of his nativity and seek an inheritance in a strange country upon the word spoken to Noah, but for himself he obtained promises at the hand of the Lord and walked in that perfection that he was called the friend of God. Isaac, the promised seed, was not required to rest his hope upon the promises made to his father, Abraham, but was privileged with the assurance of his approbation in the sight of heaven by the direct voice of the Lord to him.

“If one man can live upon the revelations given to another, might not I with propriety ask, why the necessity, then, of the Lord speaking to Isaac as he did, as is recorded in the 26th chapter of Genesis? For the Lord there repeats, or rather promises again, to perform the oath which he had previously sworn unto Abraham. And why this repetition to Isaac? Why was not the first promise as sure for Isaac as it was for Abraham? Was not Isaac Abraham’s son? And could he not place implicit confidence in the word of his father as being a man of God? Perhaps you may say that he was a very peculiar man and different from men in these last days; consequently, the Lord favored him with blessings peculiar and different, as he was different from men in this age. I admit that he was a peculiar man and was not only peculiarly blessed, but greatly blessed. But all the peculiarity that I can discover in the man, or all the difference between him and men in this age, is that he was more holy and more perfect before God and came to him with a purer heart and more faith than men in this day.

“The same might be said on the subject of Jacob’s history. Why was it that the Lord spake to him concerning the same promise after he had made it once to Abraham and renewed it to Isaac? Why could not Jacob rest contented upon the word spoken to his fathers?

Those in the scriptures were all given their own revelation, and were not left to rely only on the testimonies of others... Might we not do the same?

Idea · #5 13th January 2008, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Asinner

We should seek the acquisition of the Holy Spirit above all else.

so what are your experiences with Him?

You are a Mormon? I was wondering.

I am a convert to the Church of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints - I usually abbreviate it to the “Church of Jesus Christ” so that those not familiar with us will know we use the Bible etc…

Here is a little chunk out of my personal history...

...One Sunday, with nothing better to do, I tagged along with him to church. **** was assigned to teach a class of 12 and 13 year olds, I did not know anyone else at the church, and not mature/brave enough to just go into a meeting on my own so I followed **** into his class, and sat down with the other little kids. A little embarrassing for an adult to be sitting in on a primary class, but I would have been embarrassed anywhere I went. The class was on the plan of salvation. *** drew on the board circles and lines representing the pre-existence, earth, prison/paradise, and the celestial/telestial/terrestrial glories. As I sat looking at the chalkboard the Holy Ghost bore a powerful witness to me that what I was looking at was true – it was what Buddhists would call “enlightenment” my mind was literally opened so that for a few powerful moments I knew what I was looking at was true – and what was more, I became aware of a power in the room that was above and beyond what my eyes were telling me was there. It was the moment that changed everything – where religion went from people trying to be goodie-two-shoes stuck-up self-righteous prideful control freaks trying to manipulate me and force me into guilt trips – sorry – but that had become my viewpoint of Christian churches – (though deep down I felt atheism was somehow wrong) – Religion became real, so real it hurt.

sunlover1 · #6 14th January 2008, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by Idea

Real – personal experience, not out of a book, or from someone else’s experience… for God has no grandchildren – only sons and daughters. There is no such thing as borrowed light…
What kind of knowledge do you seek?

What kind of knowledge do you have?

I "know that I dont know" and am
content with that as I seek to know more.
But I understand that now I see as in
a mirror, darkly, and then I will know
as I am known.

...One Sunday, with nothing better to do, I tagged along with him to church. **** was assigned to teach a class of 12 and 13 year olds, I did not know anyone else at the church, and not mature/brave enough to just go into a meeting on my own so I followed **** into his class, and sat down with the other little kids. A little embarrassing for an adult to be sitting in on a primary class, but I would have been embarrassed anywhere I went. The class was on the plan of salvation. *** drew on the board circles and lines representing the pre-existence, earth, prison/paradise, and the celestial/telestial/terrestrial glories. As I sat looking at the chalkboard the Holy Ghost bore a powerful witness to me that what I was looking at was true – it was what Buddhists would call “enlightenment” my mind was literally opened so that for a few powerful moments I knew what I was looking at was true – and what was more, I became aware of a power in the room that was above and beyond what my eyes were telling me was there. It was the moment that changed everything – where religion went from people trying to be goodie-two-shoes stuck-up self-righteous prideful control freaks trying to manipulate me and force me into guilt trips – sorry – but that had become my viewpoint of Christian churches – (though deep down I felt atheism was somehow wrong) – Religion became real, so real it hurt.

So do you believe that the Buddhists have experienced GOD's
presense in their "enlightenment" or do you think it might
be a 'countefeit"?

Interesting story.
sunlover

Rick Otto · #7 14th January 2008, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Idea

Real – personal experience, not out of a book, or from someone else’s experience… for God has no grandchildren – only sons and daughters. There is no such thing as borrowed light…

There are levels of understanding:

-don’t know that you don’t know

-know that you don’t know – but only seek for faith – do not seek for personal revelations, companionship of the Holy Spirit, visions, or visits from angels. Think this is a thing of the past, and does not happen anymore.

- know that you don’t know – are not satisfied with just believing, want personal manifestations, think others have had them, want to have them yourself. Fast, pray, study, repent, work, make covenants to find if it is real.

- Know

18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day.
(Book of Mormon | Alma22:18)

What kind of knowledge do you seek?

What kind of knowledge do you have?

Answer: Spiritual.

"...so real it hurt."

Sounds like a good hurt.

Idea · #8 14th January 2008, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by sunlover1

I "know that I dont know" and am
content with that as I seek to know more.
But I understand that now I see as in
a mirror, darkly, and then I will know
as I am known.

so how long are you going to wait to know?

So do you believe that the Buddhists have experienced GOD's

presense in their "enlightenment" or do you think it might
be a 'countefeit"?

Interesting story.
sunlover

Sorry - enlightenment was just the closest words I could find to describe what I experienced...

Yes, I believe all who find truths can feel the Holy Spirit - all who seek to find a higher power can come to know that a higher power does indeed exist -

It is the privilege of the children of God to come to God and get revelation. … God is not a respecter of persons; we all have the same privilege

many do not understand what they are feeling though

Idea · #9 14th January 2008, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

Sounds like a good hurt.

actually...

Of course knowing something is real, and understanding where you fit into the big picture are two very different things. I did, and still do have a lot of concerns about the quality of my spirit, and big doubts about where my final destination is. A cruel trick to show someone Heaven, and then show them themselves. You convince yourself there is no way that the wretched little person you are has any chance at all in entering the pearly gates.

That's it - no more cut-n-pastes out of my personal history

sunlover1 · #10 14th January 2008, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Idea

so how long are you going to wait to know?

He shows us little by little.
partly dependant on us,
as you mentioned, do you
want to fast, study, spend
time in prayer listening etc.
Thanks for the reminder.

Sorry - enlightenment was just the closest words I could find to describe what I experienced...

Yes, I believe all who find truths can feel the Holy Spirit - all who seek to find a higher power can come to know that a higher power does indeed exist - many do not understand what they are feeling though

There's no other name under heaven by
which men can be saved.
And if you have the Son, you have the Spirit.
If you dont have the Son, you cannot "feel"
the Holy spirit can you?

I agree that many don't understand what they're
feeling, but I am no advocate of going by our
feelings.
Our heart is deceitful above all things.

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked: who can know it?

sunlover