You've argued that one set of words never was pointing to the Last Day. I don't grant that, but -- on the same basis -- the words Jesus is using here have never been understood as figurative. The fact is, you can't get a consistent conclusion with this reasoning. Why pick & choose what you'll accept on the basis of an inconclusive argument? If one phrase points to the physical, and the other phrase (in your estimate) points to present judgment, then you've got a contradiction. The reasoning to reach this contradiction is thus faulty.
I'm not following your argument here. And what "present judgment" are you talking about? And what do you mean by, "the words Jesus is using here have never been understood as figurartive." Understood by who?
Net result: you can't trust this reasoning. It's inconclusive.
You can't treat God's word this way. Your method of argument answers two different ways depending on what phrase you examine.
Again, I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Please elaborate.
How does snuffing people out make God a "God of life"? How does hating people make God a "God of love"?
When did I ever say God was "a God of life" or "a God of love?" Are you confusing me with someone else?
Again, your argument doesn't carry because it's inconsistent. It doesn't apply to any other concepts of Who God is. Why should it apply to "comfort" above all other attributes of God? Hm?
Again, who are you talking to? I never said God was "a God of comfort." You're the one that was using that expression, and I denied that our "comfort" was a priority for God (which is obvious from the world in which we live, which can often be very uncomforatable). "God is love," but God is not "comfort."
But perhaps you're arguing that, if everyone is ultimately saved (from sin and death), then that would somehow undermine God's justice, or his righteousness, or his holiness. If that's what you're saying, then I would ask why you think such would be the case.
Because what God says concludes as much, that's why.
Well that's certainly what you're trying to prove, but so far, I must say, without any success. I deny that "what God says concludes as much." God doesn't say any such thing. You're mistaken.
Why do you go to such extents as to argue Scripture doesn't mean what it flatly says?
And I might ask you the same question. You're the one making scripture stand on its head in John 5, just because you need it to teach what you thought was such an obvious doctrine (that of post-mortem punishment). And if you're wondering what I mean by "making scripture stand on its head," then look back at my objections to your understanding of John 5.
You've asserted what Scripture denies. People won't be fully punished for their sins in this life. "It's appointed to men once to die. After that, the judgment." It's not "During that, the judgment." It's after.
I deny that the author of Hebrews is even talking about literal death here. But even if he is, the only judgment said to follow literal death is stated in Genesis 3:19 (and if it be anything else, the judgment could be positive for all you know; not all judgment is negative, as I'm sure you're well aware). But again, I do not believe the author even has physical death in view here. If you read the entire chapter, you'll notice that the structure and context of the passage encompasses the perpetual sacrificial work of the High Priests, and how what Christ did is superior. The continuous and imperfect ministry of the Old Covenant High Priests was but a type of what Christ accomplished.
The word "men" in verse 27 is preceeded by the Greek definite article tois. In order to maintain the popular reading of this verse, most translators leave out the article. But correctly parsed, the verse reads, "...as it is appointed for THOSE (tois) men to die once..." Just look at verse 28, where this definite article appears again: "...but to save THOSE (tois) who eagerly wait for him." "Those men" doesn't refer to all men universally, but to the High Priests (Aaron and his successors in office), which the author of Hebrews has been referring to, and contrasting with Christ. The context of Hebrews 9 is a discussion about the Levitical priesthood. What the chapter treats is those ritual offerings which represented Christ and his "better sacrifices" than those offered by the levitical priests (9:23).
Annually, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest entered the Most Holy alone. When he entered, he did so only with sacrificial blood. That animal blood represented himself and the nation as a whole. When he thus entered, he symbolically died. Not until he emerged from the tabernacle to bless the people did they know whether his sacrificial offering met God's acceptance or whether he had been struck down. The benediction he pronounced, expressed in the words Moses instructed him to use, was God's judgment on the matter. Then the national anxiety over atonement dissipated, and they rejoiced and thankfully prepared for the Feast of Tabernacles immediately following the Day of Atonement.
Again, the context here clears up all uncertainty. This passage is a comparison/contrast between Jesus and the Old Covenant High Priests. The popular reading, however, does not reflect the true intent of the passage, but makes it meaninglessly disjointed. Read with the context in mind (and with the Greek word tois actually translated!), then the two little words "as" and "so" actually mean something: "And AS it is appointed for THOSE MEN [i.e., the High Priests] to die once [ceremonially, once a year], SOCHRIST was offered once to bear the sins of many..."
Why? It depends on how deeply impacting you assume sin to be. Since you're not concluding that on the basis of what Scripture said, then of course you'd have these questions about why the infliction of pain in eternity, why doesn't it solve something.
I'm not asking myself these questions; I'm asking you these questions to see what you think. Nowhere does Scripture state that God will inflict pain on anyone after they die - especially not endlessly - so I'm naturally curious as to why you think it's so necessary.
The view of pain you're assuming is that it should have a healing purpose, a goal in time.
While I haven't yet argued this point, it is true that I believe that all pain has a purpose that will prove to be for our benefit at a future time. However, it is also true there is much pain experienced in life that does not have an obviously "healing purpose." In many cases, pain simply ends in death - and death, in itself, doesn't "heal" anything.
But pain doesn't always have a healing purpose. Some pain is beyond redemption.
This is a baseless assertion. Perhaps you have something with which to substantiate it...
You can at least see that in the present creation. Many people die in great pain. What purpose did that pain serve?
No, I don't see in the present creation that "some pain is beyond redemption." So, you have yet to substantiate your assertion. Now, perhaps if I was an atheist, I would be forced to come to your conclusion, but I'm not. I believe in a God who is all-wise and all-powerful, and who can therefore bring good out of any evil - both in this life and after this life is over.
So the fact is, pain has a purpose beyond stopping the pain.
I'm not even sure what this statement means.
God is not obsessed with making us comfortable.
I agree; but you seem to be obsessed with arguing with a strawman.
Why'd God tell people they'd die for their sin -- if really, they're not going to die?
What do you mean? If God told people they'd die for their sin (and he has), then I believe they died for their sin. But since when does "dying" mean "living in endless pain?"
Why say people will be raised to judgment in the future?
Because people were raised to judgment in the future. But that doesn't mean they were raised from physical death to judgment, or that it's still in our future.
Nah. Your view is not what Scripture is stating.
This is your unsupported opinion, and I'm afraid it's not worth much to me.
It's too easy to point out the inconsistencies as we go along.
I thought the same exact thing about what you've been saying!
Why have a spiritual resurrection to judgment in John 5?
Here is what I said in an earlier post:
So what is Christ talking about in vv. 28-29? The “coming out of the tombs” of which Christ speaks was a spiritual awakening of many of the people of Israel to the life of the Gospel, due to its concurrent proclamation and acceptance during that time (again, see John 5:24). This "resurrection" to new life from out of spiritual death (cf.Eph 2:1, 5-6) continued throughout the ministry of the apostles, even up until the time when the city of Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by the Romans (something that was greatly feared by the Jewish leaders at that time – see John 11:48-50). Among those who believed the Gospel, some (many, in fact – see John 12:42-43) did not confess their belief for fear of what others would think, and because they didn’t want to be “put out of the synagogue.” Thus, they were indeed awakened to the new life of the Gospel, but they either remained “closet believers” or ultimately “fell away” from the truth of the Gospel and returned to their former way of life (see Heb 2:3, 6:4-8; 10:26-29; John 8:30-33, 37, 44; 2 Pet 2:20-22; etc.). When God’s wrath fell upon that guilty nation to the uttermost in 70 AD, those who “did evil” by falling away from their faith after having been resurrected to new life when they believed the Gospel (or those who never confessed their faith in the first place) were ultimately judged along with those who’d never believed, and either perished in the overthrow of their nation, or were led into captivity. Thus, these came forth to “the resurrection of judgment,” while those believers who endured in their faith until the end came forth to “the resurrection of life” (for they were spared from that awful judgment).
and
The “judgment” of which Christ speaks was a judgment that took place before the generation of which he was a part passed away. For almost 40 years after Christ’s ascension, life simply went on as usual for the Jews of that first century generation. Some continued to respond to the Gospel of the kingdom with faith (and consequently were being raised to new life), while some remained in unbelief, and remained in a state of “death.” Others fell away from the truth and returned to their former ways. But when the prophetic signs began to appear, indicating that Christ’s coming in judgment was near, believers (whom Paul said were “not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief,” and whom he exhorted not to “sleep, as others do,” but to “keep awake and be sober” – 1 Thess 5:4, 6) were thus roused to activity and were able to escape the coming judgment by fleeing from the area, just as Christ had commanded them to do (see the Olivet discourses). But for those who had remained in unbelief (or had fallen back into unbelief), that day surprised them like a thief in the night. Again, Paul says, “While people are saying, ‘There is peace and security,’ then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape” (v. 3). Such were indeed “resurrected” from their former state, and way of life. However, their resurrection was not to life (or blessing), but to judgment. Those believers who remained “sober” and “endured to the end” were also “resurrected” – not to the judgment of their nation, but to “life” (the aionion life of the Messianic age, when it replaced the Mosaic age of the law in 70 AD).
The spiritual resurrections in verses 24-25 climaxed in a dramatic change in peoples' circumstances, which depended on how people responded to the Gospel (and whether or not they remained "awake" and "sober"). Thus, the people of Israel were "raised" to two very different states: for those who remained spiritually alive and endured to the end, their resurrection was to a state of blessing (the "resurrection of life") and for those who, having been raised spiritually but then fell away, their resurrection was to a state of shame and condemnation (the "resurrection of judgment').
Why judge anyone who's spiritually resurrected? Don't they "not enter into judgment"? That's no spiritual resurrection to judgment. And yet you're saying that's what 5:29 is -- when Jesus is saying it's "the resurrection of judgment"?
See above.
Last edited by thelasttrumpet; 3rd March 2008 at 09:17 PM.
Reason: clarification/corrections
Quote:
And I believe we are fully punished for our sins.
Gee, no need for the atonement, then. Hmmm.
No, it would only mean that there is no need for the atonement as you understand it. I don't believe Christ died to save us from endless, post-mortem punishment, because scripture never speaks of this as being something to which anyone has ever been exposed, or was ever in danger of experiencing.
Consider it -- and realize that spiritual resurrection removes the judgment. So Jesus would be denying what He just said (compare :24 with :29).
Ok, I understand your argument -- however, I deny that the "spiritual resurrection" in vv. 24-25 was an irreversable state (unlike literal, physical resurrection). This "spiritual life in Christ" was enjoyed only as long as one was believing on him, and "abiding" in him. If one "fell away" at some later time, and thus did not "endure to the end," they exposed themselves to this judgment once again: "If anyonedoes not abide in mehe is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6).
Thus, while "many of those who [slept] in the dust" (Dan 12:2) responded to Christ's words in faith (and were consequently "raised"), only those who "did good" (abided in Christ to the end) came forth to "the resurrection of life" when "the hour" that was "coming" finally arrived. But those who "did evil" (did not abide in Christ) came forth to "the resurrection of judgment" at this time, and were "burned."
Last edited by thelasttrumpet; 5th March 2008 at 09:30 AM.
So evil people can't be said to have been punished by God if they go through life physically healthy and prosperous, and die wealthy?
Not simply that: comfortable, prideful, unchanged, unchallenged, having enjoyed life.
Is anyone resurrected to judgment? They are. Jn 5:28-29 Will they be punished? Yep, they will. Mt 25:31ff. You can try supremely to reduce that to some group of evil believers (??), but it doesn't fit the context of what what Jesus said. Jesus would be speaking so "offbeat" from his hearers as to be incomprehensible.
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
Not simply that: comfortable, prideful, unchanged, unchallenged, having enjoyed life.
And how do you know that such spiritually dead people "enjoy life," Mikey? I think only God can make that call, since he's the one who created us, and thereby determined what will give us true joy and peace. People simply cannot live in sin and experience true happiness, and fulfillment. It just doesn't work that way. Hence, I deny that violent, proud and wicked people (such as are described by David in Psalm 73) are blessed by God with true happiness, or real enjoyment in life. They are not living as they were created by God to live, and thus cannot be said to "enjoy life." Such people don't know what real living is. I would rather be the poorest, most humble man in the world and know Christ, than be the richest and proudest king who is yet "dead in transgressions and sins." To go through life with every "creature comfort" you can think of, and yet be spiritually dead, is a cursed and unhappy existence. All such people have are merely physical comforts, and even this is taken away from them in the end.
Is anyone resurrected to judgment? They are. Jn 5:28-29 Will they be punished? Yep, they will. Mt 25:31ff. You can try supremely to reduce that to some group of evil believers (??), but it doesn't fit the context of what what Jesus said.
So do you think Christ was speaking about "some group of evil believers" in John 15:6? The fact is, they're no longer believers when they're once again exposed to judgment. Christ is talking about those who were raised to spiritual life, but subsequently fell away and no longer abided in him. It is these people who were "resurrected to judgment" when the "hour" came.
Jesus would be speaking so "offbeat" from his hearers as to be incomprehensible.
Ironically, most people to whom he spoke (especially unbelievers) did find him to be "incomprehensible."
And how do you know that such spiritually dead people "enjoy life," Mikey?
Behold, these are the wicked; always at ease
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
So do you think Christ was speaking about "some group of evil believers" in John 15:6?
No, I don't.
Not everything is about soteriology. "Abiding in Him" isn't about having been saved. But not abiding in Him is definitely about not having been saved.
Originally Posted by thelasttrumpet
The fact is, they're no longer believers when they're once again exposed to judgment. Christ is talking about those who were raised to spiritual life, but subsequently fell away and no longer abided in him. It is these people who were "resurrected to judgment" when the "hour" came.
... nah.
Originally Posted by thelasttrumpet
Ironically, most people to whom he spoke (especially unbelievers) did find him to be "incomprehensible."
He'd be incomprehensible to those who thought they understood Him.
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
Last edited by heymikey80; 9th March 2008 at 11:54 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelasttrumpet And how do you know that such spiritually dead people "enjoy life," Mikey?
Behold, these are the wicked; always at ease
1) It is clear that David is employing hyperbole here (or do you really think wicked people are literally "always at ease?").
2) You are taking this verse out of its context (see vv. 1-3, and vv. 16-28). When read in its entirety, this Psalm actually teaches the exact opposite of the argument you're trying to force it to make.
David begins this psalm by exclaiming, "Truly Godis goodto Israel,to those who are pure in heart.But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled, my steps had nearly slipped."
How did David "almost stumble" and "nearly slip?" He goes on to explain:
"For I was envious of the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked."
David then goes on in vv. 4-12 (which you quote) to describe how he viewed the wicked, and the reason for his envy. However, David later realizes that he was mistaken in his understanding. He says (v. 15), "If I had said, 'I will speak thus,' behold, I would have been untrue to the generation of Your children. But when I thought how to understand this, it seemed to me a wearisome task, until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I discerned their end.Truly you set them in slippery places; you make them fall to ruin. How they are destroyed in a moment, swept away utterly by terrors!Like a dream when one awakes, O Lord, when you rouse yourself, you despise them as phantoms."
David realizes that the wicked do not go through life without being punished for their sins, and that he was wrong for being envious of them:
"When my soul was embittered, when I was pricked in heart, I was brutish and ignorant; I was like a beast toward you..." (vv. 21-22)
David ends this psalm by declaring, "For behold, those who are far from you shall perish; you put an end to everyone who is unfaithful to you.But for me it is good to be near God; I have made the Lord GOD my refuge, that I may tell of all your works."
David is comforted in knowing that God is just, and that the wicked will not go unpunished. Their apparent "ease" throughout life is but an illusion; ultimately, all must reap what they sow. And those who make God their refuge are blessed by him.
3) God himself declares that "there is no peace (shalom)for the wicked" (Isaiah 48:22; 57:21). Any "ease" the wicked may enjoy in life is simply in external comforts and material prosperity. But this is not true joy and peace, and consequently it is not true enjoyment of life. The existence of those who are "far from God" in their hearts, and "dead in trespasses and sins," is a wretched one. The truth is that, appearances notwithstanding, "the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet,and its waters toss up mire and dirt" (Isaiah 57:20).
Thus, this psalm turns out to be a marvelous example of how God judges righteously in the earth. Though life may sometimes seem unfair, and the wicked may seem to "get off the hook," God is just in his dealings with the children of men. Those who are righteous will be blessed, and those who are wicked will be punished.
Last edited by thelasttrumpet; 10th March 2008 at 10:58 PM.
He'd be incomprehensible to those who thought they understood Him. 
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