Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
you know how to deny everything, as a proponent said, selection is an explaination around the probability. Well it is good at denying reality. but lets quit our fultileness, if the big bang is true i havbe no grounds to speak. Now please, tell me, how something came from completely nothing, and by nothing.
This is what I was trying to say, but David can do it much better. Ignore my ramblings and read Davids.
Originally Posted by David Gould
Arikay,
I think Lucaspa is saying that the demand for an answer to the question 'What caused God?' before accepting that God is the answer to 'What caused the universe?' is not logical, and is certainly not scientific.
The problem is that some Christians connect the two by demanding that everything that exists needs a cause in order to try and prove God and then suddenly somewhere along the way exempt God from this axiom.
Lucaspa, I believe, does not argue for God along those lines. But because so many do there is an automatic connection in many atheists' minds (mine included) between the questions, 'What caused the universe?' and 'What caused God?'
1) maybe you can answer my questions about backing up your claims.
2) You do know that the Big Bang was thought up by a christian right?
3) Read about Quantum fluctuations and virtual particles. They do not need a cause.
Originally Posted by gnarly love
you know how to deny everything, as a proponent said, selection is an explaination around the probability. Well it is good at denying reality. but lets quit our fultileness, if the big bang is true i havbe no grounds to speak. Now please, tell me, how something came from completely nothing, and by nothing.
He has always been, that is the point we all need to know from my prespective. There was never a time GOD didnt exist. If GOD was caused who caused him, and then infinte regress. Let it stop at GOD, not some being above GOD, which would actually wipe out "GOD" and make the causing of "GOD" to now become god.
SO suppose there is no god at all ever. What comes from nothing and by nothing that forms something? What in our existence does this happen?
you know how to deny everything, as a proponent said, selection is an explaination around the probability. Well it is good at denying reality. but lets quit our fultileness, if the big bang is true i havbe no grounds to speak. Now please, tell me, how something came from completely nothing, and by nothing.
Have you looked into quantum mechanics by any chance?
At the quantum level, things come from nothing by nothing all the time. Weird but true.
So the axiom that something cannot come from nothing falls.
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for the very nature of the case, as the cause of the universe of space and time, the cause must be uncaused chagless, timless and immaterial being of which created the universe. It is timeless and therefor echangless because it created time beacuse it also created space it must be immaterial and not physical.
I'm with you so far. These qualities are in no conflict with many Big Bang formulations so far. In fact, old earth creationists have argued that the big bang points directly to a cause that exists outside of space and time (not physical)...they claim this is proof of the God of the Bible.
Originally Posted by gnarly love
i would also argue that it would have to be personal, for if it was of a changless and impersonal cause, it couldnt exist without its effect. If the changless and impersonal conditions were timelessly present the effect would also be timeless.
Huh? I'm afraid this last part is confusing. Are you saying that if the first cause was some random fluctuation, then the universe would be timeless? This is a curious assumption (and I fail to see the logic I'm afraid). If the first cause was initiated by a 'personal' God, then this would simply be a matter of faith...not a conclusion that science or logic can provide. I still don't see any conflict with BB formulations.
Science will never prove God, gnarly. But nothing in science disproves or contradicts the God of the Bible either. Clearly God has intentionally designed things this way so that faith can always be a completely free choice.
maybe it was, i dont deny that it was. quit avioding my question. Sure, a christian sure can come up with the big bang, its fine, but using it in the terms of you, there is no god, give me a explicit logical explaination for something to come from nothing and by nothing.
Science will never prove God, gnarly. But nothing in science disproves or contradicts the God of the Bible either. Clearly God has intentionally designed things this way so that faith can always be a completely free choice. well said
but the evidence can make you lean that way. Milk man, i find that funny, do you realize how I could do the same to you, but i find it meaningless and actually not being very altruistic which is sad.
Last edited by gnarly love; 4th November 2003 at 11:20 PM.
People have. More than one person and more than once. (explained that something can come from nothing).
Again, maybe you can back up the claims and accusations you made in your large post. What source are you getting your information from, and how much have you studied biology, astronomy and quantum mechanics?
Originally Posted by gnarly love
maybe it was, i dont deny that it was. quit avioding my question. Sure, a christian sure can come up with the big bang, its fine, but using it in the terms of you, there is no god, give me a explicit logical explaination for something to come from nothing and by nothing.
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Last edited by Arikay; 4th November 2003 at 11:19 PM.
Ignore my ramblings and read Davids. 
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