Chance and evolution

gnarly love · #31 4th November 2003, 08:56 PM

I dont see why you deny evolutions chance up until now. Did you know that if we didnt have all those proteins and the lysosomes and the rest, we couldnt exist, how can somethin evolve from something that isnt permmited for life? The "simple organisms" which none is, but the trilobite can not evolve from anything because of the complexity of its eyes. If t didnt have them at that time, they wouldnt live. Its quite obvious evoution did not occur, why didnt the plantets evolve as well, a subject of which I am not well educated in but something like planets rotate the wrong way, 8 I think, but ill let ya have that one. Now GOD perfectly set it up for me to be born. According to modern ethics you dont have to be in love or fall in love or even know the person to have babies. You have the wrong idea of the sperm, a million chances more for me to be born not .000001. The purpose of life to an evolutionists is "We are just slime waiting to die" no hope, none at all. I dont see your logical outworking being right to stay alive yet no purpose or meaning. We are just about as high as a swarm of misquitos.

gnarly love · #32 4th November 2003, 08:57 PM

correction: I dont see why you do deny evolutions chance. Take out up until now, brain was somewhere else.

armed2010 · #33 4th November 2003, 08:58 PM

gnarly, can you edit your post into something comprehensible?

Arikay · #34 4th November 2003, 09:07 PM

Im curious where you are getting your information about evolution. what is your source?

"but the trilobite can not evolve from anything because of the complexity of its eyes."

False. Less complex eyes were around before the trilobyte. Did you know that some trilobytes have actually Lost their eyes because they did not need them anymore?

"Its quite obvious evoution did not occur, why didnt the plantets evolve as well, a subject of which I am not well educated in but something like planets rotate the wrong way"

Im thinking your source might be DrDino or a variation of him. The Theory of Evolution says nothing about Planets or how the rotate (nor anything about the big bang, or the begining of life). As far as why a planet might rotate a different way, a large collision when it was forming would probably do it.

"Now GOD perfectly set it up for me to be born"

There are Theistic Evolutionists that believe god set up evolution to work out the way it did. Thus your odds calculations are completly meaningless in both respects.

"You have the wrong idea of the sperm"

You do realize each sperm is different, right?

"The purpose of life to an evolutionists is "We are just slime waiting to die" no hope, none at all."

Nope. Unless of course, you are saying that the majority of christians arent "true christians"

Evolution does NOT equal atheism.
even if it did.
Atheism does NOT equal "no hope".

Originally Posted by gnarly love

[snip]

gnarly love · #35 4th November 2003, 09:12 PM

Theistic I am, but then you must realize I am a christian, not just a thiest. But you need to help me on the meaning/purpose of life in an athiestic world view. As I understand is this as follows. If there is no god and no immortality then life ultimately becomes absurd. Because life ends with death and no meaning and there is no fusion of meaning in the lives we do have that transcends the grave.
When I was little my dad told me I was going to die, then the thought struck me and I cried and cired. My dad tried to comfort me by saying my death was a long way off but the sense of it coming just brought no meaning in this life. Jean-Paul Sarte, I think I realzied the childs insight was the correct one. Sarte said "wether it's a few hours or a few years makes differnce once you have lost eternity." ALL we have toiled to do and all our accomplishments and sacrafice mean no more than a a barnyard full of pigs. Ultimately our life is buried in the mist of ruins. Why live like a Mother Theresa instead of a Stalin or Hitler? Our contrbutions that we make ultimately make no difference to the fate of the universe. But if all we are is immortal and no god there is no one to set an absolute standard of right and wrong, good and evil. We still would be purposeless biproducts of matter + time + chance. But if GOD exists then in the christian frame of refrence our lives here on earth are infused with an eternal significance because our end is not death it is eternal to know GOD. And enjoy Him forever. There is an absolute standard of right and wrong, good and evil.

armed2010 · #36 4th November 2003, 09:17 PM

Basically your going off of wishful thinking, because your very disturbed by the thought that since theres no god/afterlife/etc, that our lives are meanlingless. Therefore, you believe in a god/afterlife/etc, to make you feel better. Im sorry, but wishful thinking does not = proof.

Arikay · #37 4th November 2003, 09:20 PM

Thats fine if you are christian. Many christians here accept evolution as the way god created. Matter of fact, the Majority of christians accept evolution. Unfortunatly many creationist groups try to pretend that evolution is atheism so they can attack it, but that is a lie.

"If there is no god and no immortality then life ultimately becomes absurd. Because life ends with death and no meaning and there is no fusion of meaning in the lives we do have that transcends the grave."

nope. Should have stopped at, "there is no god" that would have been close.

Atheism is, no belief or lack of belief in god or gods. No more No less.

Atheists can believe life has a point.
Atheists can believe in an afterlife.
Atheists can believe in a sould.
etc.

For example, there are buddhists that are atheists.

Originally Posted by gnarly love

Theistic I am, but then you must realize I am a christian, not just a thiest. But you need to help me on the meaning/purpose of life in an athiestic world view. As I understand is this as follows. If there is no god and no immortality then life ultimately becomes absurd. Because life ends with death and no meaning and there is no fusion of meaning in the lives we do have that transcends the grave.
When I was little my dad told me I was going to die, then the thought struck me and I cried and cired. My dad tried to comfort me by saying my death was a long way off but the sense of it coming just brought no meaning in this life. Jean-Paul Sarte, I think I realzied the childs insight was the correct one. Sarte said "wether it's a few hours or a few years makes differnce once you have lost eternity." ALL we have toiled to do and all our accomplishments and sacrafice mean no more than a a barnyard full of pigs. Ultimately our life is buried in the mist of ruins. Why live like a Mother Theresa instead of a Stalin or Hitler? Our contrbutions that we make ultimately make no difference to the fate of the universe. But if all we are is immortal and no god there is no one to set an absolute standard of right and wrong, good and evil. We still would be purposeless biproducts of matter + time + chance. But if GOD exists then in the christian frame of refrence our lives here on earth are infused with an eternal significance because our end is not death it is eternal to know GOD. And enjoy Him forever. There is an absolute standard of right and wrong, good and evil.

gnarly love · #38 4th November 2003, 09:30 PM

You are the distortion of athiesm. You borrow religious ideas and add them to your athiesm, you can but its without the actual coherent definition.If god doesnt exist we are merely an arrangement of molecules that live and then die, man is who you define him to be as Stalin pointed out. Sleep is drawing near, but I have maybe a few questions that need explained. The big bang requires, for athiests, for the universe to come from nothing and by nothing. Certainly that is impossible, from nothing, nothing comes.

The Archangel Aethariel · #39 4th November 2003, 09:34 PM

Now scientifically, mathmatically the chance that those 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations each fitting in its own niche with a predetermined zip code the odds of those could evolve in thier placement is 1 chance in 10 to the exponent 4,478,296. That is 1 followed by 4,478,296 zeros, it ias agreed anything over 10 to the 50th power is impossible. May I conclude evolution is impossible using the scientific method? Yes. (Scientific method is using logic and mathmatics.)

Want to cite a paper to back up your crazy numbers? Moreover, this kind of approach grossly misunderstands evolution-- evolution does not claim that the proteins are created and placed by 'chance.' The proteins that exist are there because they are selectively superior or because of random fixation in the population. (The latter option not being particularly applicable to non-complex lifeforms, like the bacteria which you mentioned.) Whoever you got this numbers from pulled them out of the Deep Dark Recesses of You Know Where-- and furthermore doesn't even understand the processes and factors that evolution actually make claims about.

You don't find it a teensy bit odd that the vast majority of trained scientists accept a theory which would require not only one, but vast multitudes of impossibly unlikely events? I mean, I don't know about you, but I have trouble imagining that biologists are really that dedicated to The Big Lie-- hey, it isn't like there is anything better to do than waste your life supporting what is clearly a transparently absurd doctrine. :rolleyes:

Have you ever considered the possibility that you don't actually understand what evolution really is, and that you're just attacking a strawman created by radical ideologues?

~AA

lucaspa · #40 4th November 2003, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Michali

I agree with every one of these sentences, but I don't understand the relevance in the last sentence. Could you clarify?

You're original post was "Would every evolutionist here agree that the number of generations we are made of should greatly outnumber the total number of mutations that we are made of?"

Now, humans and chimps diverged from a common ancestor about 6 million years ago. Assuming 20 years per human generation, that's 1.2 million generations. But among the people of today there are 6 billion mutations. That's a lot more than 1.2 million.

Also, I was just wondering, if it is one unique mutation per individual (lets just say it is exactly that) then there has to be atleast (lets say I have 14 billion sets of "grand parents") 28 billion "mutations" that I contain. Now, each individual ancestor is also made of a tree mutations. That is added to me. The numbers are vast. Am I wrong in saying this? (I have already been corrected by Milk Man Dan earlier in the thread.)

Many mutations are eliminated thru selection. With 1.2 million generations, that's only 1.2 million grandparents, not 14 billion. And with 6 billion base pairs in your genome, that's only 20% of your genome that would be mutations even if all the mutations had been kept. Also assuming that each mutation happened at a different base pair.

That last assumption is probably not true. It is known that the genome has "hot spots" that are more susceptible to mutations than other areas. And areas that are very resistant to mutations.