Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
This isn't a quote. Well yeah it is, I think you consider reading his books. Darwin in articles claimed to be insane. He would puke up on himself, the father of our modern concept of evolution is insane as he even said in his writings. I will end here: "It's pure determinism."
You have throw out all ideas of a god, therefore i will not debate such a biased closed hearted individual. Cast your biasedness away as once said by a scienctist athiest, Dr. Atkins. You cant explain orgins so what are we to discuss something that may have not occured?
Not to be mean, but have you read all of the previous posts? The root of 2 is infact perfectly infinite "in the small". But, in the real world, in order for the universe to not be infinite, there has to be indivisble units of spacetime.
but that is really stretching it... you are sticking in the superfluous word "perfect" when sazing "root 2 is irrational" can do exactly the same job, without resorting to such nebulous terms as perfectly infinite in the small. ok, which is more perfect, root2, pi, or e? I will start by saying they are all irrational.
__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
but that is really stretching it... you are sticking in the superfluous word "perfect" when sazing "root 2 is irrational" can do exactly the same job, without resorting to such nebulous terms as perfectly infinite in the small. ok, which is more perfect, root2, pi, or e? I will start by saying they are all irrational.
My mistake, these are all not infinite. They may be infinitely divisible mathematically, but in the real world, 3 does infact reach 4. The answer to this is, these numbers are not infinitely large.
Its just that your notion of perfect is a strange one, Michali. Root 2 is 'perfectly' infinite? Why isn't 5? It also has an infinite number of digits after the decimal place, they just all happen to be zero.
Why does perfection=infinity mathematically?
These numbers are not infinitely large. It is the large infinity I was supposed to have been concentrating on. But, mathematically, I look at the perfect like this: It is a set value (a line) of which the compared values (the assymptote) will never reach. In infinity, there is always a number greater than another number. The "infinite value", or the unreachable line, is infact, perfect in this way. "Perfect" is the word I am attributing to this ever-great value.
That's a classic tautology! It is meaningless. All cats are cats. Yes, but so what?
I said because the perfect (noun) is perfect (adjective).
The initial statement was that God had was limited to putting His characteristics on us. This doesn't help that. If God chooses to limit itself and its characteristics (then it could also limit its infinity and omnipotence, BTW) then that means a whole set of characteristics that God can eliminate from itself.
I believe that the perfect, in order to actually be perfect, can be greater than its own self. It can impose imposibilities for it to follow by. It defines itself from being chaos. It gives the infinite choice and will. It can, simply put, do anything. This includes being the "last system" and being apart from that system. Though I see no reason why it should have to be.
However, what is to prevent God from putting some of those characteristics into humans? Say, gender? Which gender does God have? In fact, God is not compelled to put any of its characteristics into us. So what if we are also beings? Bacteria are also beings. Did God imprint its image onto them? How do you "see" that this has happened? What's your extrabiblical evidence?
The perfect (if what I say is true) must be a self limiting infinity. It has free will through this, and it chooses to impart free will on its creations. Humanity (I believe) is the only true being seperate from causuality by the nature of the spirit (I know this is my belief). We know that God is perfect, and yet has the ability to forget our sins. This is an example of self-imposed limits.
Why not? Isn't Christian theology supposed to contain truths about God? Why are you junking all those truths?
I am not adhereing to Christian theology at the moment, and yet it appears that this perfect of which I speak of, has the attributes of our Christian God.
By your logic there has to have been a wait.
1. God is infinite in all dimensions.
2. Therefore, God has existed infinitely into the past.
3. Big Bang is only 13 billion years old.
4. God had to exist infinitely before the Big Bang.
5. Humans are God's companionship.
6. Therefore, since God existed infinitely before the Big Bang, then God had to wait.
1.)As soon as God made the dimensions in Him, He automatically filled their limited proportions.
2.)God existed infinitely in the past up until the beginning, because there was no time before that.
3.)yes
4.)Yes He exists, but He did not exist before the Big Bang. He just exists, but not "until" the Big Bang (or the limit of time) was imposed on the universe, did He have a "beginning" in time. It was not until that point, that His existence could be measured in moments.
5.)Or something like that. As I said earlier, I don't know our true purpose.
6.)God (as Arikay once theorized) would be outside of time, and could see everything in an instant. He would exist in every instant. He never waited (implying He follows by time's rules). He does not follow frame by frame, but rather exists in all of them.
No time to us. But you are insisting that God is beyond the universe. That God is the system that contains the universe. Since the universe has time, that means that God has time long before the universe came into being.
Logical deductions from your assertions.
Time is a created limit to impose order on His system of the universe. It was not "until" spacetime was created that there was anything such as "long" and "before". He is infinite in all these as "soon" as they "come" into being. Because they exist in Him and expand in Him seemingly forever, He is an infinite system.
__________________
Last edited by Michali; 5th November 2003 at 08:24 PM.
I think I would just like to go ahead and state all of my proposal's plainly:
(like lucaspa said)
1.)The infinity is a system in which the universe expands in.
2.)Infinity is omni-potent.
3.)Infinity is "perfect". Perfect, meaning it is greater than anything that is compared to it.
4.)Infinity, being perfect, can effectively top itself. Therefore imposing limitations on its own actions, rather than spontaneously performing actions of chaotic proportions. This is the attribute of a being. Infinity is a being.
5.)Infinity is God.
I'll post this here, as well as begin another thread.
This isn't a quote. Well yeah it is, I think you consider reading his books. Darwin in articles claimed to be insane. He would puke up on himself, the father of our modern concept of evolution is insane as he even said in his writings.
Where is this claim of insanity? In context. Which means we need the entire paragraph. And Darwin's writings are on the web here to help you out: http://pages.britishlibrary.net/charles.darwin/
This character attack is not going to get you anywhere. I showed how Darwin thought evolution was a creation idea and not atheistic. Now you are dodging that.
I will end here:
"It's pure determinism."
You have throw out all ideas of a god, therefore i will not debate such a biased closed hearted individual. Cast your biasedness away as once said by a scienctist athiest, Dr. Atkins. You cant explain orgins so what are we to discuss something that may have not occured?
Atkins is indeed an atheist. But where have I thrown out any idea of deity? C'mon, Gnarly, show me.
Evolution did occur and is occuring as we speak.
Now, when atheists say "what is the origin of God" I explain you can't use an unanswered question on the next level to invalidate an answer on the first level. You're not going to get that. Let me try again.
We answer questions in layers. As soon as we answer 1 question, 3 or 4 new ones pop up out of the answer.
For instance:
"Why is there a universe?"
Possible answer: "God created it."
New questions: 1. Where did God come from? 2. How did God create the universe? Now, not having the answers to 1 and 2 doesn't mean the answer "God created it" is wrong, does it?
So, let's try a new sequence:
1. "How did the diversity of living organisms come about?" Answer: They evolved thru descent with modification.
2. Where did they descend from? Answer: A primitive cell.
3. How did the cell come about? Answer: Chemistry.
4. Where did the chemicals come from? Answer: nucleosynthesis in stars.
5. Where did stars come from? Answer: From gravity collapsing hydrogen.
5. Where did hydrogen come from? Answer: From frozen energy in the Big Bang.
6. What caused the Big Bang? Answer: We don't know.
Now, because we don't know what caused the Big Bang does not mean we don't have the origin of stars, chemicals, life, and the diversity of life.
Your logic is just as invalid as that of the militant atheists who try to deny that God created the universe by saying we don't know the origin of God.
Clear? Sauce for the goose.
__________________ "If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890
Dr. Carl Baugh said, or I heard it wrong, Darwin did pleasd insane. BUt if he didnt o well...
"Evolution did occur and is occuring as we speak"
Well, you are unless I have in the last month or so not heard that it is, the scientific community agrees that we are not evolving. This has even been said by a scientist, but forget his name and his exact quote. Heavy stuff against your idea of evolution occuring now. What is your example of it? A horse and a donkey, then to a mule and thats it? =)
But to make it shorter, you dont know the concept of GOD. GOD has always existed, there is no begginning to GOD. Even if there was and I am not saying at all that this is the case but to convey my point. If GOD was created, wouldnt that make GOD not GOD? The cause is greater than the effect as you should have learned in grade sshool. GOD, isnt that being suppose to have the most supreme power? Yes. Therefore if GOD was created, that cause that made "GOD" come into being would actually be god instead of "GOD." I understand why you dont believe in GOD now, you literally know nothing or bearly anything about GOD. If you cant even get His existence striaght, you have no foundation to add to and make falsehood assupmtions.
"How did God create the universe?"
God is all-powerfull, if you are refering to my GOD. Which I do believe you are and thus wouldnt that be silly to have all power and then be hindered and puzzeled on how to make a universe? This earth in many places is beyond beauty, but as astronauts were out of earths atmosphere once, they undesrcibable sight was described by saying "In the begginning GOD." Sums it up well. If you only know one half of the argument and are very biased towards the other while even having little to no knowledge, certianly you will make up wild imaginations of the other side or just not care on finding out what really is the agrument on the opposite side. You need to also know your opponent as well as yourself. And yes I agree, even if there was no answer to something, that doesnt make it wrong, that is pure fallacy.
"1. "How did the diversity of living organisms come about?" Answer: They evolved thru descent with modification." Yes, could have, but not a fact.
"2. Where did they descend from? Answer: A primitive cell." You really need to reexamine your critearia. Even a single cell organism is very complex. No organism is truly "simple." Name a primitive cell, once you do, I can as of right now garuntee you it was not truly without complexity. If this is true as I claim, evolution cant be really true....
3. How did the cell come about? Answer: Chemistry. Once again, cause has to be greater than effect. Chemistry brought the cell into being. The cell brought us into being, therefore even thought are brains are the most complex and awesome thing in the universe, chemistr is higher because it ultimately brought us into being, laugh laugh.
4. Where did the chemicals come from? Answer: nucleosynthesis in stars. Dont know about it, probably so though.
5. Where did stars come from? Answer: From gravity collapsing hydrogen. Serious? Yes. But lets look at what Brandon Carter has calculated; The odds against the conditions be suitable for later star formation without which planents would not exist is 1 followed by at least a thousand billion billion zeros!
6. What caused the Big Bang? Answer: We don't know. Exactly, not that it is wrong, but it is though not a scientific observation, but rather a epistomological question in philosophy. Most likely against what we observe: No known mechanism would allow a bounce back after a hypothetical ‘big crunch.' As the late Professor Beatrice Tinsley of Yale explained, even though the mathematics say that the universe oscillates, ‘There is no known physical mechanism to reverse a catastrophic big crunch.’Off the paper and into the real world of physics, those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, and that’s the end. The Big Bang either had to be created by something, which only implies a creator, or it didnt happen. The Big Crunch sure doesnt seem like it would be permitted ontinuance of this cycle of collapsing and recollapsing until we were brought into being if it did ever occur.
"Your logic is just as invalid as that of the militant atheists who try to deny that God created the universe by saying we don't know the origin of God."
There is no "origin" to GOD, He has always existed and always will. That shows GOD didnt come from somewhere.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
lucaspa denying the existance of God?
Christiananswers.net a reliable source of evolutionary info?
You really did come to this discussion unprepared....
But to make it shorter, you dont know the concept of GOD. GOD has always existed, there is no begginning to GOD. Even if there was and I am not saying at all that this is the case but to convey my point. If GOD was created, wouldnt that make GOD not GOD?
Of course. Which is why Creationists need to define God out of any discussion of origins.
The cause is greater than the effect as you should have learned in grade sshool.
Wrong again.
I drop a pebble at the top of a snowy mountain.
Five minutes later, an avalanche buries a small town at the foot of the same mountain.
Cause greater than the effect?
[quote]GOD, isnt that being suppose to have the most supreme power? Yes. Therefore if GOD was created, that cause that made "GOD" come into being would actually be god instead of "GOD."
So you just change the definition of "God" to be whatever you can't explain the origin of...
I understand why you dont believe in GOD now, you literally know nothing or bearly anything about GOD. If you cant even get His existence striaght, you have no foundation to add to and make falsehood assupmtions.
I suggest you look at lucaspa's posts before you embarass yourself any further with such accusations.
"How did God create the universe?"
God is all-powerfull, if you are refering to my GOD. Which I do believe you are and thus wouldnt that be silly to have all power and then be hindered and puzzeled on how to make a universe?
Stop tap-dancing and answer the question.
This earth in many places is beyond beauty, but as astronauts were out of earths atmosphere once, they undesrcibable sight was described by saying "In the begginning GOD." Sums it up well. If you only know one half of the argument and are very biased towards the other while even having little to no knowledge, certianly you will make up wild imaginations of the other side or just not care on finding out what really is the agrument on the opposite side.
Stop tap-dancing and answer the question.
You need to also know your opponent as well as yourself. And yes I agree, even if there was no answer to something, that doesnt make it wrong, that is pure fallacy.
If you're still talking to lucaspa, then you just blew out every Irony Meter on the board.
"1. "How did the diversity of living organisms come about?" Answer: They evolved thru descent with modification." Yes, could have, but not a fact.
So how'd it happen?
"2. Where did they descend from? Answer: A primitive cell." You really need to reexamine your critearia. Even a single cell organism is very complex. No organism is truly "simple." Name a primitive cell, once you do, I can as of right now garuntee you it was not truly without complexity. If this is true as I claim, evolution cant be really true....
Do try to study cellular evolution once in a while...
3. How did the cell come about? Answer: Chemistry. Once again, cause has to be greater than effect. Chemistry brought the cell into being. The cell brought us into being, therefore even thought are brains are the most complex and awesome thing in the universe, chemistr is higher because it ultimately brought us into being, laugh laugh.
Once again, since you've based this on a faulty assumption (cause must be greater than effect), your point falls flat.
4. Where did the chemicals come from? Answer: nucleosynthesis in stars. Dont know about it, probably so though.
So there you go.
5. Where did stars come from? Answer: From gravity collapsing hydrogen. Serious? Yes. But lets look at what Brandon Carter has calculated; The odds against the conditions be suitable for later star formation without which planents would not exist is 1 followed by at least a thousand billion billion zeros!
Not so. Carter is looking at the current state of the universe and assuming that this was the intended result.
6. What caused the Big Bang? Answer: We don't know. Exactly, not that it is wrong, but it is though not a scientific observation, but rather a epistomological question in philosophy. Most likely against what we observe: No known mechanism would allow a bounce back after a hypothetical ‘big crunch.' As the late Professor Beatrice Tinsley of Yale explained, even though the mathematics say that the universe oscillates, ‘There is no known physical mechanism to reverse a catastrophic big crunch.’Off the paper and into the real world of physics, those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, and that’s the end. The Big Bang either had to be created by something, which only implies a creator, or it didnt happen. The Big Crunch sure doesnt seem like it would be permitted ontinuance of this cycle of collapsing and recollapsing until we were brought into being if it did ever occur.
You really only see two possibilities, do you?
"Your logic is just as invalid as that of the militant atheists who try to deny that God created the universe by saying we don't know the origin of God."
There is no "origin" to GOD, He has always existed and always will. That shows GOD didnt come from somewhere.
Love and Truth.
And semantics.
__________________
Don't talk like one of them. You're not! Even if you'd like to be.
To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other.
See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.
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