Chance and evolution

I know I added in my belief, but that was not my primary point. My point was that if anything exists without origin, it would have to preceed any and everything. Thereby meaning that it is the only real thing.

Nothing can "just exist" in it, because that would have to be a completely outside system. Anything that exists without origins is a foundation, and it is a singular. Everything is in it.

If the universe exists without origins, I believe it would have to be infinite and omnipotent. But since it is expanding, and it was at one time, less than it is now, it is obviously not infinite, not omnipotent, and not perfect. It must, therefore, exist in another system.

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The problem here Michali is you are using descriptors that are non-descriptive for the universe. 'Omnipotent' and 'perfect' for example.

In addition, the universe was smaller in size in the past, but that doesn't imply it was 'less' in any sense other than what we think of as 'volume'.

Finally, your conclusion does not logically follow from your premise. Just because the universe is expanding and finite does not imply another system. (if it does, you are not explaining it here).

'perfect and omnipotent' are aspects of ideology that have probably infiltrated into Christianity from ancient Greek theology. These notions do not fit well in the original Judeo-Christian theology of God and creation.

Whatever has acheived "infinity", if that is possible, has acheived omnipotency. Hence, the theory of multiple universes. "Perfect" is the term used to describe the fact that this infinity is omnipotent and self limiting. I believe they fit very well into both science and theology.

If the universe is expanding, it is expanding in another system. It is supposedly expanding in nothing. But this does not imply that the nothing is not real. It is simply the absence of the universe.

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Originally Posted by Michali

I know I added in my belief, but that was not my primary point.

I was complimenting you that you stated it correctly.

My point was that if anything exists without origin, it would have to preceed any and everything. Thereby meaning that it is the only real thing.

This does not follow. Just because you have a First Cause doesn't make everything else not real. Everything that is real is kicked off by First Cause. Or rather, the material universe we observe around us is kicked off by First Cause.

Nothing can "just exist" in it, because that would have to be a completely outside system. Anything that exists without origins is a foundation, and it is a singular. Everything is in it.

That last sentence does not follow, either. And it contradicts orthodox Christian theology. The universe does not exist in God, but rather that God is separate from the universe.

If the universe exists without origins, I believe it would have to be infinite and omnipotent.

Why? Niether is required.

But since it is expanding, and it was at one time, less than it is now, it is obviously not infinite, not omnipotent, and not perfect. It must, therefore, exist in another system.

Again, the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Infinite does not equal omnipotence and and infinite does not equal perfection. There is no requirement I can see for the universe or First Cause to be infinite, omnipotent, or perfect.

You are assuming that these 3 characteristics are required and then using circular logic to conclude they exist.

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"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890

Originally Posted by Michali

Whatever has acheived "infinity", if that is possible, has acheived omnipotency.

Why? This doesn't logically follow.

Hence, the theory of multiple universes.

Where does multiple universes fit in? Multiple universes was proposed to get around the Anthropic Principle.

"Perfect" is the term used to describe the fact that this infinity is omnipotent and self limiting. I believe they fit very well into both science and theology.

Then you need to explain this in much more detail, because I'm with Mike and don't see your conclusions following from your premises.

If the universe is expanding, it is expanding in another system. It is supposedly expanding in nothing. But this does not imply that the nothing is not real. It is simply the absence of the universe.

There is no other systems for the universe to expand into. When you say "nothing" you are thinking of a balloon expanding in air. But that air is another piece of spacetime. However, the universe is all the spacetime there is. It's difficult to conceive, but the universe is not expanding in another system. There is no other system. No space, no time, no matter, no energy. Really NO THING.

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"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890

"Existence" is an undefinable term. If something "exists" it exists because it is present within something. We say "I exist because I am in the universe.", but what does the universe say? Does it say, "I exist because I am?" No, it says, "I exist because I am in another system, or (in my belief) God."

Eventually you reach a system that has the attribute of "I am". What ever this system is, is infinite in all attributes. Anything that is infinite is also omnipotent. An example: If spacetime were infinite, everything (and I mean everything) would be possible somewhere in space or time.

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It is infinite, because anything that exists in it has the ability to remain in it's existence even though it is expanding. If it expands in all values forever, it's father system must be limitless.

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I do understand the NO THING part of it. But the very fact that it is expanding and the very fact that is IS implies that the universe is in another system. The Physical laws, the Mathematics, the attributes of existence all show limits. All show impossibilities.

Because these values are increasing, they are increasing in something. They are increasing in an infinite system.

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Xenophanes gave me the idea. He was an ancient Pre-Sokcratic philosopher in Greece.

He claimed that in infinity, there must exist a "perfect". He argued that the perfect was the only thing that could be truly defined as a god. Anything compared to the "perfect" would be imperfect in comparison. It is simply the value that (somehow) is infinity.

Basically, Xenophanes goes in depth on some of its attributes. He claims that it would fill everything and yet be a singularity. For, if it were "many", it would have parts. And "parts", as we know, each contain what another does not. It could not have an equall, because then it would not be greater than it. It would work toilessly (implying omnipotency), and it would have no real "form" (other than a sphere, he claims {since gods were, at the time, human in form}).

I really liked this theory and I added to it. Since I believe that infinity cannot exist without chaos (everything happening at the same time), I concluded that the "prefect" could even top itself. It could limit its own actions rather than spontaneously performing everything at every moment. This implies the attributes of a "being". So the perfect is infinity. It is God. Simply because if something exists, God must exist.

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Stating that the universe is in God, is also stating that God is "outside" of the universe. I am not saying that the universe is God. That would make God imperfect. But rather, God's form cannot be limited to a definite. The "entirety", as Gnostics put it, is also not God. God is completely undefinable by what exists. He is seperate by this fact, that he is greater than existence itself.

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