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2nd November 2003, 04:45 AM
|  | Electric Kool-Aid Girl
 
| | Join Date: 8th August 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Reps: 307 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Mac6yver Isn't it possible that life has did not arise because the amount of energy the sun projects on Earth is perfect for life, but rather that it evolved around the amount of energy the sun puts out. It simply used what was available and had to live within the confines of that amount of energy?
Yes, thanks for saying this. This is how I picture it happening, life making due with what was/is there and evolving "around that", as you said.
__________________ None of the gods love wisdom or desire to become wise, for they are wise already -- nor if someone else is wise, do they love wisdom. Neither do the ignorant love wisdom or desire to become wise; for this is the grievous thing about ignorance, that those who are neither good nor beautiful nor sensible think they are good enough, and do not desire that which they do not think they are lacking.
Plato, Symposium 203E-204A
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2nd November 2003, 01:21 PM
|  | Legend
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 | | Join Date: 21st September 2002 Location: United States
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Reps: 295,212,687,427,838,720 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by drfeelgood Nathan, nobody is perfect, and it certainly doesn't detract from the argument that the position of the sun, size, etc, is probably unlikely to be random.
Why not? Why do you assume that the way life is now is the only possible way it could be? Rather than focus on the remainder of my argument, you zoomed in on the error, the validity of the remainder of the post notwithstanding. You can't moot the point that quickly.
But I did discuss the remainder of the post: Argument from design falls flat because you assume that life could not have arisen in any other way except as we know it now.
Suppose the sun were a little closer. Suppose the temperature on Earth was hotter... isn't it possible that some kind of life would've evolved that adapted to super-high temperatures? |
2nd November 2003, 01:25 PM
|  | Contributor
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Reps: 26,771 (power: 42) | | Originally Posted by Nathan Poe Suppose the sun were a little closer. Suppose the temperature on Earth was hotter... isn't it possible that some kind of life would've evolved that adapted to super-high temperatures?
I guess we could always use the Martians as a case in point 
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2nd November 2003, 01:44 PM
|  | GondolierAce
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Reps: 6,626 (power: 20) | | Originally Posted by drfeelgood I stated that I felt that the proximity of the sun to the earth, it's release of energy was just right to sustain life. I don't rate this as a chance, and I don't think any sane individual can. I realize I stated the last piece argumentatively, but I realize that hardly anyone took me to task on it. What did many do instead? Why, many jumped on an error I made
I, on the other hand, pointed out both the obvious error and the error in the substantive point you were trying to make. At the risk of repeating myself, there is no such thing as 'just the right' energy output to sustain life. If our Sun had a slightly higher energy output, it would still have a habitable zone around it. That zone would simply be further out. Were the energy output a little less, the habitable zone would be closer in. The energy output really doesn't need fine-tuning. |
2nd November 2003, 02:50 PM
| | Contributor
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| | Join Date: 26th June 2003 Location: from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits
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Reps: 26,771 (power: 42) | | I hear you and appreciate what you are saying Martin. Please check your rating for more info 
You have added an interesting viewpoint about the energy output that I never thought of.
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2nd November 2003, 06:48 PM
| | Legend
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| | Join Date: 21st September 2002 Location: United States
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Reps: 295,212,687,427,838,720 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by drfeelgood I guess we could always use the Martians as a case in point
Hmmm? Is the fact that there are no Martians spposed to mean something?  |
3rd November 2003, 07:09 AM
|  | WinAce > cdesign proponentsists
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Reps: 16,712 (power: 43) | | Originally Posted by drfeelgood Our sun contains over 99% of the mass contained in the entire [solar system]. That to me is incredible. Why our sun? Why not some other star?
well you need to check every single star of course, and demonstrate that in all of them, the star does not hold ~99% of the solar system. Our sun can hold over one million of our Earths. How is it that our star, while being so big, releases EXACTLY the right amount of energy to sustain life on our planet? Over 380 billion trillion kilowatts, the equivalent to 100 billion tons of TNT exploding each second.
well we have a couple of things here. the sun releases exactly the right amount of energy to maintain it's own structural equilibrium. It happens that our star is a fairly long lived star, exactly the sort that is good fir complex life, since it gives that life a) plenty energy) and b) plenty time to evolve. Second of all, there is no need to say it releases exactly the right amount of energy for us, rather we (life) have adapted to take as much advantage of it's energy as we can. Coincidence? Come on. Not even the most close-minded scientist can genuinely buy into that argument. It's there for a reason, and it's presence isn't random.
nope, definitely not coincidence. Given a replicator in an environment, which has the ability to produce slightly varying offspring and far more offspring than could survive, the surviving ones will be the ones best adapted to the environment and best at replicating themselves. Inferior replicators - replicators less suited to the environment will lose out to the better ones. hence the nature of the replicators will always end up fitting the environment that they exist in.
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3rd November 2003, 11:42 AM
| | Anima Invictus
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Reps: 13 (power: 0) | | I stated that I felt that the proximity of the sun to the earth, it's release of energy was just right to sustain life. I don't rate this as a chance, and I don't think any sane individual can. I realize I stated the last piece argumentatively, but I realize that hardly anyone took me to task on it. What did many do instead?
I'm not sure why this is even 'awesome' to you-- if life is going to exist anywhere, it has to exist with 'just the right energy,' by definition. What you're saying here is not substantially different from saying:
"Wow, look at this right triangle. How unlikely is it that the other two angles add up to 90 degrees perfectly so that the third can be a right angle? There is absolutely no way this could have happened by chance-- I'm awestruck!"
The fact that our environment is life-friendly is a necessary precondition of us having life at all-- it isn't chance at all, it is a definitional truth. Why in the world do you find this amazing?
~AA |
3rd November 2003, 07:47 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
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Reps: 1,385 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by The Archangel Aethariel I'm not sure why this is even 'awesome' to you-- if life is going to exist anywhere, it has to exist with 'just the right energy,' by definition. What you're saying here is not substantially different from saying:
"Wow, look at this right triangle. How unlikely is it that the other two angles add up to 90 degrees perfectly so that the third can be a right angle? There is absolutely no way this could have happened by chance-- I'm awestruck!"
The fact that our environment is life-friendly is a necessary precondition of us having life at all-- it isn't chance at all, it is a definitional truth. Why in the world do you find this amazing?
~AA
bravo  |
3rd November 2003, 08:05 PM
|  | Teleologist
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| | Join Date: 1st August 2003 Location: Florida
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Reps: 1,320 (power: 12) | | Originally Posted by The Archangel Aethariel I'm not sure why this is even 'awesome' to you-- if life is going to exist anywhere, it has to exist with 'just the right energy,' by definition. What you're saying here is not substantially different from saying:
"Wow, look at this right triangle. How unlikely is it that the other two angles add up to 90 degrees perfectly so that the third can be a right angle? There is absolutely no way this could have happened by chance-- I'm awestruck!"
The fact that our environment is life-friendly is a necessary precondition of us having life at all-- it isn't chance at all, it is a definitional truth. Why in the world do you find this amazing?
~AA
Oh I would suppose it would have to be the fact that life existing on other planets is an extreme rarity. "Life" basically is a planet's virus. Not really a destructive force to the planet until a species like ours comes along with the potency to utterly blow it apart. It is not the planet's acheival of life that I'm impressed with, it is humanity.
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