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30th October 2003, 01:01 AM
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Reps: 9,402,894,558 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Mike Flynn You forgot terminal cancer and whole hosts of neurological disorders. But why stop there? With a little research, I'm sure you can do better than that parasite example Halruaa.
I'm guessing you are not speaking from personal experience here Halruaa. Instead, you strike me as a kind of 'litigator' for all the people who have ever suffered in the world. You probably figure you have an *air tight* case against God with your arguments, yes?
Terminal cancer is indeed painful, however most people with terminal cancer are under so much medication during the last remaining weeks they dont know what's going on. My uncle passed away after a 6 month fight with liver cancer, during the last two months he didnt know what was going on. Granted it was terrible to watch, he most likely didnt feel any pain or had any idea what was going on.
You're right, im not speaking from personal experience. And no I dont have an 'air tight' case against god, I dont need to present a case against something I dont believe in! Of course, If all you are is your physical body, then you are right, there is nothing good in suffering....and none of these arguments will ever sway you (how could they?) But if thats true then there is no God anyway, so who are you going to blame? Just have fun while you can in your pointless, finite existence. One thing is certain: pain and death will one day find you too Halruaa. But *if* there is a God, when that day comes you just might lose the only thing you have that really matters.
Yes, you are right. All I am is a physical body, however good can come from suffering. It can make people more open to others when it comes to suffering. I personally have a connective tissue disorder, that will leave me with a lifelong chain of heart problems in the future, and because of this I feel im a better person. I know that im not as lucky as others, and I treat people with the respect they deserve. However, this disability also makes me more harsh towards those who abuse their bodies (like drug users..). I get really angry when I see drug users abuse themselves, because they dont know what its like to not live normally. They take their health for granted, and I feel they don't deserve it. Pain has already found me, and i've accepted the fact that when im in my thirties i'll have terrible heart and lung problems. I accept death, its one of the only two definite things in life. The other being taxes..heh. Im not worried when I die, because I know there is no god, just like you know there is a god. Either way you are left without a case Halruaa, if God exists then He is justified by redeeming the souls of those who suffer...if He doesn't then you are wasting your breath with your arguments.
BTW, If you want to see it for yourself, volunteer for palliative care or help take care of those who *really* suffer. Time and again I have seen people turn to God just when things are worst. An act of desparation? Or an act of *clarity*? Maybe it doesn't compel everyone...but thats because faith is a free choice.
How do you explain people who suffer more than others? There are people who go through life with no medical problems, live to be 80 and die happy. Then you have people like me, who will suffer much physical pain, and will experience countless health problems in the future. Im only 19 years old, and I chances are will suffer more than a lot of people here. My suffering however, is nothing compared to those with terminal illness, cancer ect. I am very happy to be as 'healthy' as I am. | 
30th October 2003, 01:02 AM
|  | Veteran 11 
| | Join Date: 6th November 2002 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA
Posts: 1,693
Blessings: 90,823 My Mood
Reps: 2,975 (power: 13) | | | Viruses, carnivores, and parasites exist because they can. Just like we exist because we can. There is nothing god-driven about existence.
If ever conditions cease to be hospitable to an organism, it will cease to exist. Like dinosaurs. Or smallpox.
The fact that something is unpleasant or deadly to humans doesn't mean it's out to get us. It just means that living things are by nature opportunistic. All living things feed on each other. We feed on plants and animals and they feed on us. This fact tells us nothing about God.
__________________ Well the lush separation unfolds you --
and the products of wealth
push you along on the bow wave
of the spiritless undying selves.
And you press on God's waiter your last dime --
as he hands you the bill.
And you spin in the slipstream --
timeless -- unreasoning --
paddle right out of the mess.
- Jethro Tull
Last edited by judy; 30th October 2003 at 01:04 AM.
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30th October 2003, 01:39 AM
|  | Beyond Delusion 29  | | Join Date: 29th October 2003
Posts: 309
Blessings: 93,066
Reps: 1,263 (power: 10) | | | Strawberries taste sweeter if you've lived on lemons all your life
And water is so much more enjoyable after a few hours of hard work
Even sitting on a chair can be a Godsend, if you've just run a few miles | 
30th October 2003, 01:41 AM
|  | Beyond Delusion 29  | | Join Date: 29th October 2003
Posts: 309
Blessings: 93,066
Reps: 1,263 (power: 10) | | | Judy,
Virii are not alive, so how can they be opportunistic? They do not feed and have no ambition. They aren't even technically parasites. | 
30th October 2003, 01:47 AM
|  | Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't. 41  | | Join Date: 28th May 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia
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Reps: 44,959,170 (power: 44,986) | | Originally Posted by Michali It would appear that those who experience hardships are more blessed than those who do not.- very Biblically supported.
Coincidence? Or Destiny?
Or purely anecdotal and thus having no statistical validity whatsoever ...
You would also need to define "blessed". Being of good health is often considered a blessing, or surviving a war unscathed, for example.
__________________ 'Avast, ye scurvy dogs! Rotate the rubber baby buggy bumpers!' | 
30th October 2003, 01:54 AM
|  | Teleologist 26 
| | Join Date: 1st August 2003 Location: Florida
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Reps: 1,320 (power: 12) | | | Blessed- born into good fortune. Or good attained not by ones own works.
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30th October 2003, 01:56 AM
|  | Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't. 41  | | Join Date: 28th May 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 17,190
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Reps: 44,959,170 (power: 44,986) | | Originally Posted by Michali Blessed- born into good fortune. Or good attained not by ones own works.
I assume being horribly disfigured by a terrifying parasite is not part of this good fortune. And yet it somehow triggers it.
Somehow, if that is the price of being blessed I'll pass. I have enough blessings, thanks.
__________________ 'Avast, ye scurvy dogs! Rotate the rubber baby buggy bumpers!' | 
30th October 2003, 01:57 AM
|  | Teleologist 26 
| | Join Date: 1st August 2003 Location: Florida
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Reps: 1,320 (power: 12) | | Originally Posted by David Gould Or purely anecdotal and thus having no statistical validity whatsoever.
According to my quote from Jesus. Lazarus did not choose to live a life of suffering, yet it was to his benefit that he did.
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30th October 2003, 01:59 AM
|  | Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't. 41  | | Join Date: 28th May 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia
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Reps: 44,959,170 (power: 44,986) | | Originally Posted by Michali According to my quote from Jesus. Lazarus did not choose to live a life of suffering, yet it was to his benefit that he did.
As I said, purely anecdotal. Lazarus was one person.
Or are you referring to the whole 'last will be first' bit?
Although this is a bit off topic for the science forum, but there you go.
__________________ 'Avast, ye scurvy dogs! Rotate the rubber baby buggy bumpers!' | 
30th October 2003, 02:01 AM
|  | Teleologist 26 
| | Join Date: 1st August 2003 Location: Florida
Posts: 2,262
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Reps: 1,320 (power: 12) | | | If I must suffer to help someone, then I will. It was for the glory of God that he must be in that state, and through the event, we both were blessed.
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