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5th December 2007, 04:27 PM
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Reps: 277,416,137 (power: 277,422) | |  Catholicism regarding the Sabbath
I've come across quite a wealth of resources regarding different statements made by Catholic clergy regarding the Sabbath and it is quite interesting. I just want to hear some opinions on this. Here are some quotes with their sources:
"It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About Protestantism of Today, p. 213.
"Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. 'The day of the Lord' was chosen, not from any direction noted in the scriptures, but from the Catholic church's sense of its own power...People who think that the scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.  |
5th December 2007, 05:48 PM
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Reps: 3,486,455,297,666,162 (power: 3,486,455,297,676) | | | One thing you have to realize about a lot of Catholic's is that they can make many claims that they can only make if one accepts their traditions. It is rather like Peter was the first pope. It is a claim that has no historical backing but many centuries later someone created a list of the popes and after a while that non historical information is treated as if it is historical by many of the theologians of the Catholic church. Fortunately they do have some good scholarship like the New Catholic Encyclopedia which is capable of distinguishing between tradition and history. But many of the quotes you are referring to are made by people trying to support their tradition rather then dealing with real history. |
5th December 2007, 05:59 PM
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Pope John Paul II got a bit more sophisticated with the claim in his papal letter, which was half of the reason that Bacchiocchi wrote his "Sabbath in Crossfire" book.
The problem is there is no evidence that Sunday was ever the new Sabbath. There was no transfer in the Scriptures and it was not until later history that they talked about it.
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5th December 2007, 07:05 PM
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Reps: 277,416,137 (power: 277,422) | | Originally Posted by RC_NewProtestants  One thing you have to realize about a lot of Catholic's is that they can make many claims that they can only make if one accepts their traditions. It is rather like Peter was the first pope. It is a claim that has no historical backing but many centuries later someone created a list of the popes and after a while that non historical information is treated as if it is historical by many of the theologians of the Catholic church. Fortunately they do have some good scholarship like the New Catholic Encyclopedia which is capable of distinguishing between tradition and history. But many of the quotes you are referring to are made by people trying to support their tradition rather then dealing with real history.
Are you sure there's no historical backing? I'll need to look into that because I was pretty sure there was. Constantine was the first to implement Sunday as the day of worship for various reasons, but it wasn't too many years after that that the church officially changed the day. That has been my understanding at least.
I'll need to go do some research I guess. |
5th December 2007, 07:09 PM
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Reps: 2,038,749,792,016,389,632 (power: 2,038,749,792,016,406) | | Originally Posted by AndrewK788 Constantine was the first to implement Sunday as the day of worship for various reasons, but it wasn't too many years after that that the church officially changed the day. That has been my understanding at least.
I'll need to go do some research I guess.
Christians were worshipping on the first day of the week long before Constantine was born. |
5th December 2007, 07:31 PM
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Reps: 277,416,137 (power: 277,422) | | Originally Posted by sentipente Christians were worshipping on the first day of the week long before Constantine was born.
How do you know that? I mean what source do you get that from? |
5th December 2007, 07:34 PM
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Reps: 3,198,177,063,204 (power: 3,198,177,076) | | But many of the quotes you are referring to are made by people trying to support their tradition rather then dealing with real history.
Care to show the proof? It certainly seems like they made claims. I haven't seen anyone claim that these claims are only true if you "accept" their traditions. Either they said it or they didn't--rather cut and dried.
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Because the critics have not studied any subject in any sort of depth (at least 3,000 pages), they quite literally do not know how little they know. In fact, they don't even know that they don't know.
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When they are wrong on the simple, why should you listen to them on the more complex?
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One rule you can always count on: never, ever trust the critics on anything. They've proven that they cannot, and will not, tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
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5th December 2007, 07:35 PM
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Reps: 3,198,177,063,204 (power: 3,198,177,076) | | Christians were worshipping on the first day of the week long before Constantine was born.
In fact, as two 5th century historians have noted most Christians (except those in Rome and Alexadria) still kept the Sabbath.
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Because the critics have not studied any subject in any sort of depth (at least 3,000 pages), they quite literally do not know how little they know. In fact, they don't even know that they don't know.
---
When they are wrong on the simple, why should you listen to them on the more complex?
---
One rule you can always count on: never, ever trust the critics on anything. They've proven that they cannot, and will not, tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
---
I now have 99 authors in my plagiarism study. The critics still have zero. |
5th December 2007, 07:36 PM
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Reps: 277,416,137 (power: 277,422) | | Originally Posted by djconklin Care to show the proof? It certainly seems like they made claims. I haven't seen anyone claim that these claims are only true if you "accept" their traditions. Either they said it or they didn't--rather cut and dried.
Indeed. And it isn't a select few who have said such things. I've discovered 37 different quotes (only ones that include sources) about the Catholic church changing the day of worship. One was even made by a cardinal in the Vatican in a letter that was sent in reply to a friend of mine who had quite pointedly asked them about the Sabbath issue. So that is even a primary source. So the question of if they did or did not say it I think isn't debatable. |
5th December 2007, 08:00 PM
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Reps: 284,290,963,309,102,944 (power: 284,290,963,309,121) | | Originally Posted by AndrewK788 Are you sure there's no historical backing? I'll need to look into that because I was pretty sure there was. Constantine was the first to implement Sunday as the day of worship for various reasons, but it wasn't too many years after that that the church officially changed the day. That has been my understanding at least.
I'll need to go do some research I guess. Originally Posted by sentipente Christians were worshipping on the first day of the week long before Constantine was born. Originally Posted by AndrewK788 How do you know that? I mean what source do you get that from? Andrew, read Bacchiocchi's book From Sabbath to Sunday. You can read it free online at this site:
http://english.sdaglobal.org/dnl/bac...oks/index.html
His research shows that Christian worship on Sunday (but not as a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath) began long before Constantine. Although I disagree with many of the conclusions that he draws from the historical evidence, he is very thorough in presenting it. Historic Adventists don't like him because he contradicts EGW's version of history on several points.
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Last edited by Sophia7; 5th December 2007 at 08:10 PM.
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