Can you guys tell me about freewill and determinism? determinism meaning everything in your life is already planned out, eg. predestined, fate, ...
I need stuff about it.
I want to be sure of what you're saying. When you qualify "determinism" with a word like "predestination", are you refering to the reformed doctrine of predestination, or some other belief? If it is your understanding that Calvinism teaches fatalism and determinism, you need some clarification. I hope that is not the case though. A good site to learn about Reformed Theology is www.graceonlinelibrary.org A good book that is short and to the point, but not oversimplified is a book called "TULIP" by Duane Edward Spencer. I hope that helps you.
__________________ If we can't die for each other, we can at least not be dead to each other.
-Anglian
there should be clarification on what is meant by the term "free will". Most assume that free will automatically means "Libertarianism", but we should not assume that free will means this at all...
there is a third option between determinism and Libertarianism which is known as Soft Determinism or Combatiblism:
"What is "compatibilism"?
Compatibilism is the idea that God has absolute control over every event that happens (as an author controls his story), including the actions and choices of man, and yet man can still be held responsible for his actions. In other words, human beings are responsible creatures (who can choose, decide, obey, rebel, and so on) but our responsibility does not limit God's ability to have absolute control. We cannot resist God's decree and plans. What follows is a simple description of compatibilism:
God can have absolute control over men's actions and men can still be held responsible for their actions. These two claims are not logically contradictory, even if they seem so at first glance.
A moment of reflection will reveal this principle at work in the death of Christ. Everything that happened, including Judas's betrayal and Pilate's apathy, which led up to Calvary was not only in God's plan, but was ordained by God to happen the way it did. These events are described with the words of the early church in this way:
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur (Acts 4:27-28, NASB).
They did what God decided should happen. Does that mean they were not held responsible for their actions? Absolutely not! In John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as the one "doomed to destruction." This is but one Biblical example (see also Isaiah 10:5-7, Genesis 50:19-20). If a man performs an evil act or falls away, God "made" him do it because God controls everything. The compatibilist will not explain why the man may be held responsible and punished. He simply asserts, along with the Bible, that the man can be held responsible. For more discussion, see the FAQ about predestination and human responsibility.
Modern compatibilists also present the following philosophical arguments which show that we do not have enough understanding to deny compatibilism. The following approach was taken from a discussion by D. A. Carson.
First, we cannot understand how an eternal God operates within time. We do not understand timelessness or eternity. Does God know sequence? If God makes a promise, then later adds a condition, how does that affect his faithfulness?
Second, if free will involves the ability to choose something other than what you chose, compatibilism disintegrates, because God can not have control. But if free will depends on choosing what you want, then Jonathan Edwards's argument preserves compatibilism.
Third, we have no concept of how God can be both sovereign and personal – yet the Bible asserts both. D.A. Carson explains:
We talk with one another, ask questions, hear answers, respond with love or wrath, cherish friendships, and so forth – and all of these elements demand the passage of time and presuppose finite actors. Similarly, in Scripture God can be portrayed asking questions, hearing answers . . . yet other texts insist he is also sovereign, the one "who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" (Eph. 1:13). . . . In short, the mystery of compatibilism is traceable . . . to what we do not know about God.
But because the compatibilist cannot explain why men are held responsible for something they are "forced" to do, their opponents often chide them, claiming that they must "cry mystery" when they are cornered. However, the appeal to mystery is made by many facets of Christian belief! If we could understand everything, what need would we have for faith? Most of us, in asserting Christ's deity, are careful not to understate his complete humanity. In developing a concept of Christ that focuses on passages which demonstrate his deity, we must be careful not to deny those which show his humanness. Some, by focusing on one pole or the other, have purported a Christ who either so spiritual he was not "made like us in every way" or else so human he was not "God the One and Only." Likewise, in this issue, we acknowledge the mystery and take pain to see that we do not focus on some texts to the exclusion of others.
And so, we must be careful in our thoughts to reconcile God's sovereignty with our responsibility. We can't leave some of the Bible texts behind! The strength of compatibilism is that it asserts, along with many Biblical passages, that God has absolute control but it also acknowledges that men are held responsible, in accordance with the Bible. It does not deny one Biblical concept in order to preserve the other. For Biblical evidence that God has absolute control over men's choices, read this essay."
If ypou REALLY want to work out your brian, see what many consider to be the death knell for Libertarianism, Jonathan Edward's massive work known as "Freedom of the Will", or, the complete title is:
A Careful And Strict Inquiry
Into The Modern Prevailing Notions Of That
Freedom Of Will
WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE ESSENTIAL TO MORAL AGENCY, VIRTUE AND VICE, REWARD AND PUNISHMENT, PRAISE AND BLAME
There is no such thing as a total "free will" in man, and nowhere in the Bible does it teach such a thing, but rather just the opposite, with the word "will" even being used specifically (Romans 7:18; Philippians 2:13).
The will of man is in bondage to whichever spirit inhabits man - the spirit of sin in the unsaved, and the holy spirit in the saved.
The unsaved will sin by nature, and the saved will do righteousness by nature. It is not a choice, but something that is fulfilled by nature.
Sinful men (the unsaved) cannot help but be sinners, they are born of the spirit of sin that was passed down from Adam and Eve who inherited it from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the saved cannot help but do righteousness, as the spirit of sin is removed from the saved when they are saved, which is what "circumcised in heart" means, and they are then born of the Holy Spirit, in its place. And as they sinned by nature before they were saved, even so now they will do righteousness by nature after they are saved; which is what Romans 6:16-22 is referring to, if you are able to discern it.
The doctrine of the "free will" stems from legalism, and nowhere in the Bible does it say that man has a total "free will."
Last edited by Ruht; 18th October 2003 at 04:22 AM.
There is no such thing as a total "free will" in man, and nowhere in the Bible does it teach such a thing, but rather just the opposite, with the word "will" even being used specifically (Romans 7:18; Philippians 2:13).
The will of man is in bondage to whichever spirit inhabits man - the spirit of sin in the unsaved, and the holy spirit in the saved.
The unsaved will sin by nature, and the saved will do righteousness by nature. It is not a choice, but something that is fulfilled by nature.
Sinful men (the unsaved) cannot help but be sinners, they are born of the spirit of sin that was passed down from Adam and Eve who inherited it from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the saved cannot help but do righteousness, as the spirit of sin is removed from the saved when they are saved, which is what "circumcised in heart" means, and they are then born of the Holy Spirit, in its place. And as they sinned by nature before they were saved, even so now they will do righteousness by nature after they are saved; which is what Romans 6:16-22 is referring to, if you are able to discern it.
The doctrine of the "free will" stems from legalism, and nowhere in the Bible does it say that man has a total "free will."
Sorry if I don't agree with you my good man but the Bible firmly teaches that man has a free will - and totally. That is why man is held responsible for His own actions. He cannot say "The devil made me do it" nor can he say, "Welll, I could not help it since my destiny was already predetermined from the foundations of the world."
We can chose to whom we will yield ourselves to. We can choose to either yield ourselves as slaves to sin or as slaves to unrighteousness. It's our choice. If we tire of living righteously we can choose to return to the bondage of slavery and vice versa. The Bible is clear about this (see Romans 6 for starters).
I know that those who adhere to the "Doctrines of Grace" differ with this point of view, but then I believe that the "doctrines of grace," when taken to their logical conclusion, make God to be the author of sin.
Well, I suppose it always depends on from what perspective one desires to look at these things.
As far as I know the term "free-will" appears nowhere in the NIV, and just once in the NASB, namely
(Phile 1:14 NASB) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
On the other hand, the Bible tells us very clearly that man's nature, pre-salvation, is in bondage to sin, being dead in his trespasses and sins;
(Eph 2:1-3 NASB) And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, {2} in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. {3} Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
So the will is in bondage to the nature of the person possessing the said will, and persons having a fallen will make choices to be sure, but no choices that are above or inconsistant with their fallen nature.
At any rate, there is no doubt but that the Bible has a doctrine or teaching concerning the will, however, the typical understanding of what "free-will" means, eg Libertarian, is not in the Bible. God is sovereign.
Man chooses based on a wide array of reasons, both external and internal to who he is. Libertarianism teaches that man chooses based on no reason at all, resulting in a doctrine of creation that removes God's sovereignty, and is chaotic, removing the moral nature of man and his choices. This is so, due to the fact that Libertarians teach that in any situation, the person choosing could have chosen differently, all things being exactly equal. But if the person chooses A over B, then certainly they had reasons for doing so. But if they in fact did not choose A over B for good reasons, then they chose A for insuffcient reasons. Then how can they explain why they ever chose A to begin with?
Further, the Libertarian belief teaches that in each and every situation there is no one factor to cause one to choose A over B, and if this entails, then why is A or B ever chosen at all? Indeed, it seems that the person would forever be suspended between A and B, and never make a "choice" at all.
And once again, if this is the case, then if A or B is chosen, then no cogent reason can be given for choosing one over the other. Was it a whim? Blind chance? Thus the choice is simply arbitrary. So if a person in a moral situation chooses to do the good in a given situation, then, in the Libertarian scheme, they did so for no apparent reason. For if they grant that there were reasons that radically affected their making a certain choice, then they would have to grant that there were suffcient causal reasons for their choice, and that if they were morally constrained to have chosen A, then they abandon their Libertarianism, and become biblical combatibilists...
As far as I know the term "free-will" appears nowhere in the NIV, and just once in the NASB, namely
(Phile 1:14 NASB) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
Even if the word (or phrase) "Free will" were not in the Bible, the concept is there throughout the Scriptures (Gen. 4:7; Deut. 11:26-28; 30:19; Joshua 24:15, 22; Isa. 66:3; Jer. 3:22; Matt. 11:28; 19:17; 23:37; John 5:40; 7:17; Acts 17:30-31; 26:20; Rom. 2:14-15 (NCV); 6:16-17; Heb. 7:25; James 4:5-8; Rev. 3:20 and many others).
The word "Trinity" is not found in the Scriptures but most of us would be quick to condemn as heretics those who deny this truth. The word "rapture" is not in the Bible but the Bible does teach the concept. Therefore, a lack of a word or phrase in the Bible does not invalidate the doctrine.
Originally Posted by Ken
On the other hand, the Bible tells us very clearly that man's nature, pre-salvation, is in bondage to sin, being dead in his trespasses and sins;
Being "spiritually" dead does not equate to inability. The basic concept of spiritual death is "seperation from God" (as the rest of Ephesians 2 will tell you; also read Isa. 59:1-2). It does not imply a lack of ability to respond to God or to even do right. Being a slave to sin does not imply that a person cannot choose or reject freedom when the opportunity for such is presented.
Originally Posted by Ken
(Eph 2:1-3 NASB) And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, {2} in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. {3} Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
So the will is in bondage to the nature of the person possessing the said will, and persons having a fallen will make choices to be sure, but no choices that are above or inconsistant with their fallen nature.
You are reading your theology into that Scripture. Ephesians 2 teaches no such thing as the bondage of the will. If that were true then there would be no reason for Jesus to lament Jerusalem's rejection of Him:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! (Luke 13:34; NKJV)
Just because people are dead in trespasses and sins does not mean that their will is in bondage. One would have to read that into the text to insinuate that it teaches it.
Originally Posted by Ken
At any rate, there is no doubt but that the Bible has a doctrine or teaching concerning the will, however, the typical understanding of what "free-will" means, eg Libertarian, is not in the Bible. God is sovereign.
While I believe that God is sovereign, there is no doubt that you and I define the term differently. I do not see God as the controller of all events or that nothing happens outside of His will. Scripture is full of examples of men doing things that God clearly did not want them to do.
Originally Posted by Ken
Man chooses based on a wide array of reasons, both external and internal to who he is. Libertarianism teaches that man chooses based on no reason at all, resulting in a doctrine of creation that removes God's sovereignty, and is chaotic, removing the moral nature of man and his choices. This is so, due to the fact that Libertarians teach that in any situation, the person choosing could have chosen differently, all things being exactly equal. But if the person chooses A over B, then certainly they had reasons for doing so. But if they in fact did not choose A over B for good reasons, then they chose A for insuffcient reasons. Then how can they explain why they ever chose A to begin with?
Further, the Libertarian belief teaches that in each and every situation there is no one factor to cause one to choose A over B, and if this entails, then why is A or B ever chosen at all? Indeed, it seems that the person would forever be suspended between A and B, and never make a "choice" at all.
And once again, if this is the case, then if A or B is chosen, then no cogent reason can be given for choosing one over the other. Was it a whim? Blind chance? Thus the choice is simply arbitrary. So if a person in a moral situation chooses to do the good in a given situation, then, in the Libertarian scheme, they did so for no apparent reason. For if they grant that there were reasons that radically affected their making a certain choice, then they would have to grant that there were suffcient causal reasons for their choice, and that if they were morally constrained to have chosen A, then they abandon their Libertarianism, and become biblical combatibilists...
IMHO...
Based on my understanding of the Scriptures (some I referenced at the beginning), I fully believe that the Bible supports what you refer to as "man's libertarian free will."
Sorry if I don't agree with you my good man but the Bible firmly teaches that man has a free will - and totally.
Then please provide the scripture that says such a thing.
"That is why man is held responsible for His own actions."
Man is held responsible for his own actions because God has granted man a limited free will in which to chose salvation or not. But even now this limited will is in bondage to the spirit of sin and can only be freed by the Holy Spirit:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." - John 6:44
"He cannot say "The devil made me do it" nor can he say, "Welll, I could not help it since my destiny was already predetermined from the foundations of the world."
In regard to choosing salvation or not, that is true, but the Bible states that the will of the unsaved is controlled by the spirit of sin (Romans 7:18; etc.), and the will of the saved is controlled by the Holy Spirit (Philippians 2:13; etc.)
"We can chose to whom we will yield ourselves to. We can choose to either yield ourselves as slaves to sin or as slaves to unrighteousness."
In regard to salvation, yes. But once the choice is made, one is still a slave to one or the other, and no slave is free.
"It's our choice. If we tire of living righteously we can choose to return to the bondage of slavery and vice versa.
No, we can't. The Holy Spirit remains in the saved forever. A person cannot be unsaved.
"The Bible is clear about this (see Romans 6 for starters)."
No, it's not, it's just "clear" to someone who thinks it is.
"I know that those who adhere to the "Doctrines of Grace" differ with this point of view, but then I believe that the "doctrines of grace," when taken to their logical conclusion, make God to be the author of sin."
Well you simply do not understand the "doctrine of grace," then.
"Well, I suppose it always depends on from what perspective one desires to look at these things.
Well, actually it all depends on God's perspective, as he is the author of scripture and only he can properly interpret it unto another (I Corinthians 2:6-16)
"So the will is in bondage to the nature of the person possessing the said will, and persons having a fallen will make choices to be sure, but no choices that are above or inconsistant with their fallen nature."
Very good, Ken. Yes, you are right, the will is controlled by whatever spirit/nature inhabits man: whether the spirit of sin, as you pointed out in Ephesians 2:2 that is within the unsaved, or the Holy Spirit, who is within all of the saved.
Man may be able to make some choices along their particular nature, but anything done against the nature/spirit of man is unnatural, and the being will not be totally successful at doing such things.
The unsaved will not be too successful at doing righteous acts, and the saved will not be very successful at doing sinful acts. For it is the spirit in man which is the core of man (Hebrews 4:12), and from the core of man come the intents, and from the intents come the thoughts (the soul of man), and from the thoughts come the actions of man.
Intent = Thought = Action.
Spirit = Soul = Body
Marrow = Joints = Flesh
Core = Inward Life Force = Outward Life Force
(Hebrews 4:12)
We are made as a trinity much like God, which is apparently one of the reasons as to why/how we are made in his image. The reason unsaved men sin by nature is because they have the spirit of sin living within their spirits that was passed down to them ultimately from Adam and Eve, who received it from within the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was a type of spiritual virus that entered into their spirits and which caused them spiritual death. This spiritual 'virus' has then been passed to everyone, seeing how everyone else came from Adam and Eve, originally.
God knew this, of course, and this is why he has declared that we must be born again of the Holy Spirit in order to be truly good beings, as trying to be righteous through written law while having a spirit of sin living in you is like what Christ said about making the outside of the cup clean, but not the inside. It is fake and artificial, and it is not the real person. Therefore we all must be born again to be truly good, and this only happens when we are saved; it accompanies salvation.
Man is then forever 'fixed', and his nature is then made into the same type of nature as God, a being with a holy spirit. We then don't need written laws to tell us how to do good, because we then will do good by nature (Romans 2:14&15), naturally, just as God does good. The spirit of sin is 'circumcised' from the hearts of the saved (Romans 2:29; etc.), and the Holy Spirit is put into saved man's heart in its place. This is not a metaphor, but an actual, literal occurrence that takes place within all saved.
This is what gives us our new mind, heart, intents, thoughts, etc., the birth of the Holy Spirit within us.
Freewill vs. Determinism 
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