The paradox of God and free will is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and has granted us free will. As the omniscient omnipotent God, he could have created the order of time any way he wanted. If we believe that God has predestined our fates by creating us from the beginning to succeed or fail, we have no true role in God's creation
Consider this:
A natural man does not have the ability to accept God. When I say that he does not have the ability, I don't mean that he will desire Christ yet not be able to accept Christ because he doesn't have the ability. When I say that he does not have the ability, I mean that he will never have the desire to accept Christ at all.
Now, this natural man has been predestined to Hell, yet he still has free will.
Throughout his life, all of the choices that he makes are free. Every single choice he makes, he is making the choice freely. At the moment of choosing, he will always choose what he desires the most.
At no point in this man's life will he desire Christ, therefore, he will never choose Christ although all of the choices he makes are free.
If someone doesn't desire Christ, it is because God has not given that person the ability to desire Him (regeneration). This is a person that God has predestined to Hell. Now while this person is a natural man, he will never choose God because he would never desire Christ. All of his choices are free, yet he cannot choose Christ because he doesn't have the ability to. This man is presented with a choice:
1. Choose Christ
2. Not to choose Christ
The man chooses option number two. When he made this choice, he made the choice freely because his strongest desire or strongest motive was to reject Christ. The reason why he rejected Christ was because he didn't have the ability to choose Christ. While he didn't have the ability to choose Christ, he still chose freely.
While God has predestined this man to Hell, this man still chooses freely whenever he is presented with a choice.
A natural man does not have the ability to accept God. When I say that he does not have the ability, I don't mean that he will desire Christ yet not be able to accept Christ because he doesn't have the ability. When I say that he does not have the ability, I mean that he will never have the desire to accept Christ at all.
Now, this natural man has been predestined to Hell, yet he still has free will.
Throughout his life, all of the choices that he makes are free. Every single choice he makes, he is making the choice freely. At the moment of choosing, he will always choose what he desires the most.
At no point in this man's life will he desire Christ, therefore, he will never choose Christ although all of the choices he makes are free.
If someone doesn't desire Christ, it is because God has not given that person the ability to desire Him (regeneration). This is a person that God has predestined to Hell. Now while this person is a natural man, he will never choose God because he would never desire Christ. All of his choices are free, yet he cannot choose Christ because he doesn't have the ability to. This man is presented with a choice:
1. Choose Christ
2. Not to choose Christ
The man chooses option number two. When he made this choice, he made the choice freely because his strongest desire or strongest motive was to reject Christ. The reason why he rejected Christ was because he didn't have the ability to choose Christ. While he didn't have the ability to choose Christ, he still chose freely.
While God has predestined this man to Hell, this man still chooses freely whenever he is presented with a choice.
I guess I do not understand how one is predestined somewhere, but still chooses freely. The third part of the paradox is that God created everything, and if he created you knowing that you would go to hell because of your choices (which he predetermined), why did he create you that way? However, if he created you in a non predestined world where there is true free will, and the ability of a soul to seek God, then creation and the Bible make a lot more sense.
There is a similar thread in the non-Christian section of this forum where one poster likens a predetermined world as one where God wrote a play, selected people to be his actors, doesn't like some of the actors lines (which he wrote), so then decides to lock those actors in his basement and beat them with a baseball bat for eternity. I don't believe that is the message from God or in the Bible.
I guess I do not understand how one is predestined somewhere, but still chooses freely. The third part of the paradox is that God created everything, and if he created you knowing that you would go to hell because of your choices (which he predetermined), why did he create you that way? However, if he created you in a non predestined world where there is true free will, and the ability of a soul to seek God, then creation and the Bible make a lot more sense.
There is a similar thread in the non-Christian section of this forum where one poster likens a predetermined world as one where God wrote a play, selected people to be his actors, doesn't like some of the actors lines (which he wrote), so then decides to lock those actors in his basement and beat them with a baseball bat for eternity. I don't believe that is the message from God or in the Bible.
Third part of the paradox? What you stated as the third part of the paradox shows no contradiction. It's just something that we don't understand. Saying that I am A and B at the same time and same relationship is a contradiction whereas saying that God would create some men only to send them to Hell is just something that we don't understand. I don't know why God did things the way He did them but I don't see any contradictions in what He did.
There is a similar thread in the non-Christian section of this forum where one poster likens a predetermined world as one where God wrote a play, selected people to be his actors, doesn't like some of the actors lines (which he wrote), so then decides to lock those actors in his basement and beat them with a baseball bat for eternity. I don't believe that is the message from God or in the Bible
But God didn't just 'write all the lines'. Saying that God 'wrote all the lines' is saying that everything that comes out of my mouth or every action that I perform was already predestined by God to happen and that is not what I am suggesting.
What I am saying is our will is free and every single choice that we make is free. In our natural state we will not choose God because we don't desire Christ and we will never desire Christ in our natural state, yet all the choices we make are still free. Sinfully free to be more specific. God chose before the foundation of the world who He would give the ability to choose Him. The people that have this gift freely choose God because at the time of choosing, their strongest motive was to choose God whereas an unregenerated person, at the time of choosing, will not choose God because their strongest motive is not to choose God. Let me explain again.
The natural man/unbeliever/unchosen person is presented with a choice. They have two options:
Option A: They can choose to accept Christ
Option B: They can choose to reject Christ
The man chooses to reject Christ because his strongest motive was to reject Christ. To have free will means to have the ability to choose what you desire the most. When this man chose to reject Christ, he desired the most to reject Christ. The reason why he had no desire to choose Christ was because God did not give the man the ability to desire Christ. While the man has already been predestined to reject Christ, he still freely chose to reject Christ because he desired to reject Christ the most. His strongest motive was to reject Christ. Remember, to choose freely means to be able to choose the will's strongest inclination. In this scenario, he freely chooses to reject Christ because he desired the most to reject Christ. He was also predestined to reject Christ because God chose not to regenerate this man.
Even though God chose not to regenerate this man, the man still freely chose what he desired the most. Although he did not have the ability to choose Option A, he still freely chose Option B because Option B was what he desired to choose the most and to have free will means to be able to choose what we desire the most.
A natural man does not have the ability to accept God. When I say that he does not have the ability, I don't mean that he will desire Christ yet not be able to accept Christ because he doesn't have the ability. When I say that he does not have the ability, I mean that he will never have the desire to accept Christ at all.
That is quite incorrect. All human beings have a spirit which hears the Spirit of God in the gospel.
Now, this natural man has been predestined to Hell,
Bunk. He is not predestined to anything. That is why God is going to judge all men.
yet he still has free will.
Throughout his life, all of the choices that he makes are free. Every single choice he makes, he is making the choice freely. At the moment of choosing, he will always choose what he desires the most.
Incorrect and spoken from the flesh. We Christians have bodies dead because of sin and we who ARE flesh often do what we do not desire. Often, Christians do not desire to go to church but they do it anyway in submission to God.
At no point in this man's life will he desire Christ, therefore, he will never choose Christ although all of the choices he makes are free.
Untrue.
If someone doesn't desire Christ, it is because God has not given that person the ability to desire Him (regeneration).
Baloney. No one was regenerated before the resurection of Jesus and many believed and obeyed God. Indeed this is why John came preaching the Kingdom into which one is born again. It was a new reality. And indeed this is why the least in the Kingdom is greater than John.
This is a person that God has predestined to Hell. Now while this person is a natural man, he will never choose God because he would never desire Christ. All of his choices are free, yet he cannot choose Christ because he doesn't have the ability to. This man is presented with a choice:
1. Choose Christ
2. Not to choose Christ
The man chooses option number two. When he made this choice, he made the choice freely because his strongest desire or strongest motive was to reject Christ. The reason why he rejected Christ was because he didn't have the ability to choose Christ. While he didn't have the ability to choose Christ, he still chose freely.
He can choose either FREELY. You don't choose Christ but Satan everytime you sin. YOu chose freely.
Ripper
I believe the Bible has ample evidence of God and man's free will. Certainly God makes choices, and the Bible celebrates those who listen to God's will and choose God back. Interestingly though, even those who God has chosen do not always fulfill their obligation. While God chose Israel, Israel on more than one occasion strayed from God. (For example the incident of the Golden Golden Calf just as God is handing Moses the Ten Commandments.) The first made humans choose to disobey, and the first born man commits murder. Hard for me to believe in a predetermined world that is the way God would have planned it.
I do believe Jesus chose his own disciples. That is the way all four Gospels write the story. Note the difference between Jesus choosing his disciples and the way God reveals his choice to John the Baptist.
Then you're ignoring what the Bible says. The Bible says his disciples were given to him by God. John 17:6
Also Jesus knew Judas would betray him and sure enough Satan entered Judas and Judas betrayed him. I guess God knows more about these things than we do.
I think the question, freewill vs. determinism is a false dilemma.
If we have free will in responding to temptation, our decision is not predetermined. Satan is a whole different subject here. (If he is not from God, he must not exist unless you want to add another God being to the universe)
You don't believe Satan exists? The Bible tells us the serpent was made and apparently Satan entered him.
The Nicene Creed and the council of Chaledon (451 CE) are not just the opinions of the Catholic Church. Catholics, Orthodox and all major Protestant denominations recognize it. In this part of the Christian Forum you had to acknowledge the Nicene Creed before you could post in this section. Faith that God can be of one essence, but three parts; Christ can be both fully human and fully divine; and that Christ is both part of the father and separate have been the cores of our belief for centuries.
Well even this requires interpretation.
Do you understand that suppression of the truth is blasphemy against the Spirit? If I believed everything you believe we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Actually I don't have a problem with the Nicene Creed since it agrees with my understanding for the most part but I have my own opinion about who Jesus was.
Jesus was the Word of God.
In the beginning God said, "Let there be light" and there was light. This was before the stars and the sun were created. The Word was "let there be light" Indeed the Word was the light that overcame the darkness.
The Word was with God in the beginning.
The Word was in a form of God, the vehicle by whom and through whom God created all things. The Word was the "way" God created all things.
I am the way, the truth and the light.
Then he emptied himself and became one of us, a servant. Jesus was the image of the invisible God, the reflection of his glory. The Son of God.
It's as if God said, "let there be God" and God was, only in the beginning he was light. The Word was, "let there be light" and the Word was God.
This is consistent with what the Bible says.
I understand the things Jesus taught his disciples the way his disciples would have understood him. They were Jewish afterall. They understood God was in the temple.
My understanding comes from a time before the Catholic Church decided what was true. It does not begin with doctrine.
My views haven't been shaped by doctrine either.
Lately I've been trying to figure out why people are having such a hard time with understanding the Bible.
Something is going on.
My views reflect who I am. If I am a Christian, then my views will reflect Christ's views. My life will reflect his life. My understanding will be his understanding and my teaching will be his teaching.
If we are Christians, then our views can not be shaped by someone else's opinions. To me the concept of the Trinty is somebody else's opinion. The Athanasan Creed outlines the concept but I don't know where else it is found. It was written by an unknown author. Nobody knows when.
To me it isn't correct but it's not so much I'm saying I know it's wrong. I'm saying I reject the way it is being used.
First it excludes anyone who thinks it's wrong. But what's worse is that scripture comes out of this meat grinder without meaning. Important concepts are lost. Words are taken to mean whatever people want them to mean. Hidden messages are found. And forget about correcting anyone. Sigh
But it's written, "Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets." Luke 6:22-23
Faith that God can be of one essence, but three parts; Christ can be both fully human and fully divine; and that Christ is both part of the father and separate have been the cores of our belief for centuries
You're misusing the word "faith".
We have faith in what God can do and what he has promised us. You can't say you "have faith that God can be of one essence, but three parts." That's a belief, an opinion. The authors of this doctrine could be completely wrong about the essence of God. The Bible doesn't talk about the essence of God other than to say life is in the spirit. But regardless, "faith" as it's used in the Bible, refers to our confidence in the teachings of Christ Jesus.
Jesus was more than fully human. He was the Word of God made flesh. "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee" Hebrews 5:5
Also read Hebrews 5:7-10.
But we don't regard Christ from a human point of view. As Paul wrote, "From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once regarded Christ from a human point of view, we regard him thus no longer." 2 Corinthians 5:16
"faith" refers to the person. In this case it refers to Christ, the confidence we have in him. Because of our confidence in him, we believe certain things but "faith" and "belief" are two different things. You can say you have faith as a result of your belief but that would require an a priori knowledge of the person so that hearing you believed. I think it's important to distinguish what we believe and to offer evidence or why we believe it.
Just to add to the idea of predeterminism, I think mentally and emotionally we're experiencing the physical world; making choices, but our steps are being directed by God. Where we are physically is where God puts us.
I think we are where we are supposed to be at any given moment; experiencing the physical world, being tempted, etc.
For example, physically Adam and Eve were in the garden being tempted. But God put them there!
It could be the only choice we make is the continuum or path we're on. As Jesus knew the path he was on would lead to his death. Our path is known to God, illuminated by the light we see things in.
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