Our choices are both free and determined. They are free in the sense that we can choose freely what we desire the most and they are determined in the sense that we determine our own choices.
Our choices are free because we can freely choose what we want the most at the moment of choosing and they are in bondage because we cannot choose what we desire the least at the moment of choosing.
Our choices are not spontaneous or random because if our choices were spontaneous or random than our choices would not have a cause. An effect without a cause violates the law of causality. There is always a reason for the choices we make, no matter what.
Our choices are both free and determined. They are free in the sense that we can choose freely what we desire the most and they are determined in the sense that we determine our own choices.
Our choices are free because we can freely choose what we want the most at the moment of choosing and they are in bondage because we cannot choose what we desire the least at the moment of choosing.
Our choices are not spontaneous or random because if our choices were spontaneous or random than our choices would not have a cause. An effect without a cause violates the law of causality. There is always a reason for the choices we make, no matter what.
I would agree that there are influences on the choices that we make, but it is the essence of free will that we ourselves have the responsibility and are the causes of the choices we make. That is the gift which God gave us when we were made "god like" in his image. It is interesting that these philosophies have political implications as well. See http://home.earthlink.net/~rdmadden/...Causality.html
if you believe in causality you must believe that Govt. must protect us from the causes.
The paradox of God and free will is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and has granted us free will. As the omniscient omnipotent God, he could have created the order of time any way he wanted. If we believe that God has predestined our fates by creating us from the beginning to succeed or fail, we have no true role in God's creation. We are just shadows or puppets in the play that was written before time. We must also believe that God not only tolerates evil, but that evil is here because God wants it here. (He could have created a world without evil) This must, therefore, be the best of all possible worlds. However, if we take God at his word and acknowledge that by being created in his image we have the ability to choose for ourselves, the creation is that much more rich (for us as well as God), and the responsibility for us is that much greater. No one is suggesting that we can be saved or avoid sin all by ourselves. That would be arrogant. However, we have the ability and choice to ask for God's help, forgivness and grace, and God has promised that will be freely given. It is not arrogance to acknowledge the gift of self choice that God has given to us. Indeed it smacks of ingratitude that we do not acknowledge and thank God for that choice. When we choose God, our choice becomes that much more special to us and to God.
Predestination, the called, the elect, the chosen, and all who will enter the Kingdom are those who God foreknew would by their own freewill follow His predetermined plan of salvation which began when He planted those two trees in the middle of the garden. Adam and Eve started a process of men going away from God. God has given us the process of salvation that will bring us bach to Him. This process progresses according to the freewill choices we make daily.
Scripture for that? (That's God's election is by foreknowledge alone)
__________________
all this that i have
is all that you are
cutting for love
a new trophy scar
just not worth the tears
and the penance
not worth the blood
that we both pour i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die without this pain
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die
without your name
without this pain
Scripture for that? (That's God's election is by foreknowledge alone)
Bulldog,
isn't foreknowledge all that's required? I mean doesn't God just know what He creates. He's the beginning and the end, there simply doesn't exist anything outside of God. So there can't be any suprises, He created things just how He wanted them?
Scripture for that? (That's God's election is by foreknowledge alone)
1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(KJV)
Predestination = God's foreknowledge of all our freewill choices.
1Peter 1:2 "chosen and destined by God the father ..."
The paradox of God and free will is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and has granted us free will.
Obviously Adam and Eve could be tempted so freewill, as you put it, is a given. We have brains, we can make decisions. But they also had a knowledge of God. They didn't decide to believe in God. They decided not to listen to him.
Likewise, we have a knowledge of God. We're told to seek knowledge and seek wisdom. And anyone who knows, knows when they are confronted with the truth, it's not a matter of choice whether they believe or not. The facts add up. Everything makes sense. It's like waking up.
But you must have an a priori knowledge of God. That's consistent with what the Bible says about being foreknown. It's not surprising therefore that upon hearing the Word, we recognized it. Recognizing the word is not a choice. Indeed Jesus said we know his voice. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me." John 10:27
John 10:14, He says, "I am the good shepard; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father". That's a pretty powerful statement and it has nothing to do with choice. He says, "My own know me".
He says, "They will heed my voice". There's no doubt about it because we know it.
A priori knowledge, according to Kant, is something you know to be true. He argues that propositions known a priori are necessarily true, while propositions known a posteriori are contingent, because a priori knowledge has always been true, according to Kant (e.g. two plus two equals four). A posteriori propositions will depend on external conditions, which may change in time, making the proposition false.
But I would go even further and say two plus two would not equal four without the a priori knowledge that four things exist.
Can you choose to believe something is black when it appears to be white?
Did Jesus decide to believe in God? No. He knew his Father. Probably some of you would say he was God. Again he said, "My own know me as I know the Father".
As the omniscient omnipotent God, he could have created the order of time any way he wanted. If we believe that God has predestined our fates by creating us from the beginning to succeed or fail, we have no true role in God's creation.
What role in God's creation do you suppose you have? When the people asked Jesus what they had to do to be doing the works of God, Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." John 6:29
We are just shadows or puppets in the play that was written before time.
We're not what we're made of. However where the physical is there also is the spiritual. This is a spiritual battle. We have freewill in the sense we can listen to God or choose to ignore him. But at the same time we are led by the Spirit. Don't we pray to God to lead us not into temptation?
Aren't we affected by circumstances beyond our control and not of our own choosing all the time? Sometimes we choose our circumstances even though we're still affected by things beyond our control.
Freewill requires a body and things that affect the body. So we're not puppets in the body but we are led by our spirit and the things we believe in. So it depends on who you are and who your Father is. I think God directs your steps. He doesn't pull your strings.
We must also believe that God not only tolerates evil, but that evil is here because God wants it here. (He could have created a world without evil) This must, therefore, be the best of all possible worlds.
I define "evil" as that which takes away what God has given. But God certainly has a right over the thing he created. Therefore he can take away life. He can shorten it or add years to your life. The fact is we are simply vessels for the spirit. Some vessels are raised to contain goodness and righteousness and some are raised to contain evil. Each vessel seems to have an affinity for the spirit it contains.
But God knows your spirit and he can harden the hearts of wicked and cause them not to see. It's all about God's purpose, not man's.
However, if we take God at his word and acknowledge that by being created in his image we have the ability to choose for ourselves, the creation is that much more rich (for us as well as God), and the responsibility for us is that much greater.
That's how we got into trouble in the first place. We wanted to exercise our freewill and disobey God.
I think it's safe to say those who believe in their ability to choose God, who are not led by the Spirit and who don't see things in spiritual terms, will be judged by the choices they make. As Jesus said, " And then I will declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' Matthew 7:23
How could there be prophets and prophesy without determinism?
No one is suggesting that we can be saved or avoid sin all by ourselves. That would be arrogant. However, we have the ability and choice to ask for God's help, forgivness and grace, and God has promised that will be freely given. It is not arrogance to acknowledge the gift of self choice that God has given to us. Indeed it smacks of ingratitude that we do not acknowledge and thank God for that choice. When we choose God, our choice becomes that much more special to us and to God.
It goes without saying, freewill goes with the body God gave us. It's also our freewill that got us into trouble. We chose not to listen to God. Our ambition was to be like God, knowing good and evil. I don't recall Jesus thanking God for freewill. I do recall he said he could do nothing of his own accord, but only what he saw the Father doing.
Obviously Adam and Eve could be tempted so freewill, as you put it, is a given. We have brains, we can make decisions. But they also had a knowledge of God. They didn't decide to believe in God. They decided not to listen to him.
Likewise, we have a knowledge of God. We're told to seek knowledge and seek wisdom. And anyone who knows, knows when they are confronted with the truth, it's not a matter of choice whether they believe or not. The facts add up. Everything makes sense. It's like waking up.
But you must have an a priori knowledge of God. That's consistent with what the Bible says about being foreknown. It's not surprising therefore that upon hearing the Word, we recognized it. Recognizing the word is not a choice. Indeed Jesus said we know his voice. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me." John 10:27
John 10:14, He says, "I am the good shepard; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father". That's a pretty powerful statement and it has nothing to do with choice. He says, "My own know me".
He says, "They will heed my voice". There's no doubt about it because we know it.
But Jesus does not say how the sheep came to his own. Jesus is telling us that he is like the good shepard. Once you are in his flock, you will know his voice and follow him. It is all about choice.
Originally Posted by MarkT
A priori knowledge, according to Kant, is something you know to be true. He argues that propositions known a priori are necessarily true, while propositions known a posteriori are contingent, because a priori knowledge has always been true, according to Kant (e.g. two plus two equals four). A posteriori propositions will depend on external conditions, which may change in time, making the proposition false.
But I would go even further and say two plus two would not equal four without the a priori knowledge that four things exist.
Can you choose to believe something is black when it appears to be white?
Actually you can if you have faith. Philosophy and Christianity are full of paradoxes. The Nicene Creed holds that God is of one essence, but also of three parts. Christ is both fully human and fully divine. Christ is both of one essence with the father, and separate. We cannot a priori resolve the contridictions. It is a matter of faith that God and Christ can be all of these things.
Originally Posted by MarkT
Did Jesus decide to believe in God? No. He knew his Father. Probably some of you would say he was God. Again he said, "My own know me as I know the Father".
In a predetermined world, not even God has free will. If he foresaw everything at the moment of creation he also foresaw everything he would do or say. Once he created the world the way he did, he no longer has free will to change his mind. I would submit the Bible goes out of its way to show that God can and does change his mind. You don't have to go beyond Genesis. He creates the world, calls it "good" and "very good" and a few chapters later contemplates its entire destruction as the world turned to evil.
Or with Jesus himself, what about that extraordinary prayer in Gethsemane? Jesus checks with God no less than three times to see if the cup could pass him by. If Jesus knew it was predetermined, why bother to ask? At one point Jesus concludes "not my will" be done. Did Jesus disagree on the necessity of the crucifixtion? That seems to be the obvious conclustion from the exchange. Jesus chooses to submit his will to God's.
Originally Posted by MarkT
What role in God's creation do you suppose you have? When the people asked Jesus what they had to do to be doing the works of God, Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." John 6:29
The role that God created for us. Primary in that role is the ability to choose belief. That is why it is so important. If the world was predetermined Jesus could just have easily said in answer to the question of what they should be doing: "Doesn't matter, if you are the elect you will know what to do, and if you are not, too bad." Jesus recognized that the most important work of God is one's own belief. If it is a given, you don't have to work at it.
Originally Posted by MarkT
We're not what we're made of. However where the physical is there also is the spiritual. This is a spiritual battle. We have freewill in the sense we can listen to God or choose to ignore him. But at the same time we are led by the Spirit. Don't we pray to God to lead us not into temptation?
Aren't we affected by circumstances beyond our control and not of our own choosing all the time? Sometimes we choose our circumstances even though we're still affected by things beyond our control.
Freewill requires a body and things that affect the body. So we're not puppets in the body but we are led by our spirit and the things we believe in. So it depends on who you are and who your Father is. I think God directs your steps. He doesn't pull your strings.
I agree with everything you say here. We are led by the Spirit, circumstances do affect our decisions, and we do require God to direct our steps. It is just not pre determined from the beginning of time, and we have to let ourselves be receptive to the Spirit, and ask God to help us direct our steps.
Originally Posted by MarkT
I define "evil" as that which takes away what God has given. But God certainly has a right over the thing he created. Therefore he can take away life. He can shorten it or add years to your life. The fact is we are simply vessels for the spirit. Some vessels are raised to contain goodness and righteousness and some are raised to contain evil. Each vessel seems to have an affinity for the spirit it contains.
But God knows your spirit and he can harden the hearts of wicked and cause them not to see. It's all about God's purpose, not man's.
That's how we got into trouble in the first place. We wanted to exercise our freewill and disobey God.
I think it's safe to say those who believe in their ability to choose God, who are not led by the Spirit and who don't see things in spiritual terms, will be judged by the choices they make. As Jesus said, " And then I will declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' Matthew 7:23
I agree that is how we got into trouble, and no where in the Bible does it say that God took our free will away from us. God could have made Adam and Eve obey him. They chose to disobey him despite walking with him in the garden of Eden. Even through they knew God, God still gave them the choice to obey or not obey. The same choice we have. Otherwise you have to conclude that God made them disobey!?
Originally Posted by MarkT
How could there be prophets and prophesy without determinism?
Phophets are messengers sent from God to warn us about a possible or probable future. Almost always a chance is given to human kind to escape dire consequences (if that is what the prophecy is about). One should also realize that Prophets are looked upon backwards in time. Those prophecies that came true, we validate after the fact. Those prophesies which did not come true, we don't hear much about. I assume you don't consider Nostradamous a prophet because some things he said we can now claim to be true. At the same time Ezekiel is no less a prophet because his Tyre prophesy does not appear to have come true.
Originally Posted by MarkT
It goes without saying, freewill goes with the body God gave us. It's also our freewill that got us into trouble. We chose not to listen to God. Our ambition was to be like God, knowing good and evil.
Agreed.
Last edited by Piano Player; 7th May 2004 at 02:23 PM.
But Jesus does not say how the sheep came to his own. Jesus is telling us that he is like the good shepard. Once you are in his flock, you will know his voice and follow him. It is all about choice.
But he does. He says they, his sheep, were given to him, according to John 17:6-10
It's well known God chooses.
The Jews, for example, were God's chosen people but they chose not to listen to God. They ignored God. They killed his prophets. The prophets were sent by God in the same sense Jesus was sent by God. They were chosen by Him and sent to His servants to prepare the way of the Lord, to prepare us for His Christ.
Can we choose to believe things? I think we can be persuaded of some things but I don't think belief is a matter of choice. I don't think we can know God or be known by God in the same "way" we choose something. According to the Bible, God did the choosing.
I don't think Jesus chose his disciples. He knew them. They were the men God had given him.
Who in the Bible chose to believe in God? Did the prophets choose? Did Peter choose? Wasn't the truth revealed to him? Did Paul choose? Didn't Christ reveal himself to him?
Didn't Jesus tell the Jews they were not "of God" because "He who is "of God" hears the words of God" John 8:47
The reason why they didn't hear the words of God is because they were not "of God", that is, they didn't belong to God/Christs' flock.
I think when you're talking about choosing you must be talking about temptation because that's where/when we are given a choice and we choose.
But remember, God tempts no one. So temptation doesn't come by God. When we are choosing, it's Satan that's doing the tempting. So I think we are tempted to think we decided to believe.
Yes we have freewill but did we use it in this case?
Actually you can if you have faith. Philosophy and Christianity are full of paradoxes. The Nicene Creed holds that God is of one essence, but also of three parts. Christ is both fully human and fully divine. Christ is both of one essence with the father, and separate. We cannot a priori resolve the contridictions. It is a matter of faith that God and Christ can be all of these things.
Believing something is black when it appears white is not faith. Faith comes from what is heard. We have faith in the things Christ taught us. Faith refers to sayings and promises.
It so happens that we believe he was the Son of God even though we didn't see him with our own eyes or hear him with our own ears. We didn't see any of the miracles he did. We have no evidence at all except for the testimony we received.
But we have faith in him, in what he said. True our faith also came by hearing but our belief must have come by an a priori knowledge of Christ.
But there's no mechanism for belief like some scientists say. Some say we must have a gene for belief. No. We had an a priori knowledge of God. We were known by God apriori. We were foreknown.
The contradictions you speak of are concerning the opinions of the Catholic church. I think we're much better off accepting what Jesus said than trying to fit what he said into the doctrines of the church.
In a predetermined world, not even God has free will. If he foresaw everything at the moment of creation he also foresaw everything he would do or say. Once he created the world the way he did, he no longer has free will to change his mind. I would submit the Bible goes out of its way to show that God can and does change his mind. You don't have to go beyond Genesis. He creates the world, calls it "good" and "very good" and a few chapters later contemplates its entire destruction as the world turned to evil.
That's right but we're talking about two different experiences; the spiritual and the physical. How we experience things may not be the way it really is. I can't really explain things in the spiritual sense. I think we've all experienced a sense of fate and destiny even though we have freewill. For some reason we can't change the past and we can't look into the future. We just seem to exist moment to moment. I don't know.
If Jesus knew it was predetermined, why bother to ask? At one point Jesus concludes "not my will" be done. Did Jesus disagree on the necessity of the crucifixtion? That seems to be the obvious conclustion from the exchange. Jesus chooses to submit his will to God's.
Jesus experienced fear, sorrow, etc.; all the experiences that the flesh goes through, that we've had, being in the flesh so to speak.
All things are possible with God and so he said, "My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me." But it was God's will, the cup God had given him to drink. I guess it was like God talking to himself in a way. Jesus was God's Word.
If it is a given, you don't have to work at it.
But faith is given. It's a gift from God. Belief, however, comes by hearing.
But he does. He says they, his sheep, were given to him, according to John 17:6-10
It's well known God chooses.
The Jews, for example, were God's chosen people but they chose not to listen to God. They ignored God. They killed his prophets. The prophets were sent by God in the same sense Jesus was sent by God. They were chosen by Him and sent to His servants to prepare the way of the Lord, to prepare us for His Christ.
Can we choose to believe things? I think we can be persuaded of some things but I don't think belief is a matter of choice. I don't think we can know God or be known by God in the same "way" we choose something. According to the Bible, God did the choosing.
I don't think Jesus chose his disciples. He knew them. They were the men God had given him.
Who in the Bible chose to believe in God? Did the prophets choose? Did Peter choose? Wasn't the truth revealed to him? Did Paul choose? Didn't Christ reveal himself to him?
Didn't Jesus tell the Jews they were not "of God" because "He who is "of God" hears the words of God" John 8:47
The reason why they didn't hear the words of God is because they were not "of God", that is, they didn't belong to God/Christs' flock.
I believe the Bible has ample evidence of God and man's free will. Certainly God makes choices, and the Bible celebrates those who listen to God's will and choose God back. Interestingly though, even those who God has chosen do not always fulfill their obligation. While God chose Israel, Israel on more than one occasion strayed from God. (For example the incident of the Golden Golden Calf just as God is handing Moses the Ten Commandments.) The first made humans choose to disobey, and the first born man commits murder. Hard for me to believe in a predetermined world that is the way God would have planned it.
I do believe Jesus chose his own disciples. That is the way all four Gospels write the story. Note the difference between Jesus choosing his disciples and the way God reveals his choice to John the Baptist.
Originally Posted by MarkT
I think when you're talking about choosing you must be talking about temptation because that's where/when we are given a choice and we choose.
But remember, God tempts no one. So temptation doesn't come by God. When we are choosing, it's Satan that's doing the tempting. So I think we are tempted to think we decided to believe.
Yes we have freewill but did we use it in this case?
If we have free will in responding to temptation, our decision is not predetermined. Satan is a whole different subject here. (If he is not from God, he must not exist unless you want to add another God being to the universe)
Originally Posted by MarkT
The contradictions you speak of are concerning the opinions of the Catholic church. I think we're much better off accepting what Jesus said than trying to fit what he said into the doctrines of the church.
The Nicene Creed and the council of Chaledon (451 CE) are not just the opinions of the Catholic Church. Catholics, Orthodox and all major Protestant denominations recognize it. In this part of the Christian Forum you had to acknowledge the Nicene Creed before you could post in this section. Faith that God can be of one essence, but three parts; Christ can be both fully human and fully divine; and that Christ is both part of the father and separate have been the cores of our belief for centuries.
By the way Council of Chaledon states:
The Definition of the
Council of Chalcedon (451 C.E.)
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
Originally Posted by MarkT
That's right but we're talking about two different experiences; the spiritual and the physical. How we experience things may not be the way it really is. I can't really explain things in the spiritual sense. I think we've all experienced a sense of fate and destiny even though we have freewill. For some reason we can't change the past and we can't look into the future. We just seem to exist moment to moment. I don't know.
Jesus experienced fear, sorrow, etc.; all the experiences that the flesh goes through, that we've had, being in the flesh so to speak.
All things are possible with God and so he said, "My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me." But it was God's will, the cup God had given him to drink. I guess it was like God talking to himself in a way. Jesus was God's Word.
I think these are excellent issues. You have hit upon a number of issues that fill books. Our living on the knife edge of the present is a big part of Existential theology and philosophy. Certainly the Gnostics did not believe we experience reality the way it truly is. However, Gnostics certainly lost out in the early history of the church.
The experiences of Jesus in Gesemane do tie in the paradoxes. He is both fully human and fully devine. He does experience the feelings of the flesh. He is separate from the father, but also part of his will and the word of God. He can see what is coming, but also knows that a different decision could be made. The thrice deliberation in Gesemane tells me that God also deliberates and makes choices. Clearly some choices are hard, even for God. For me, it makes God's sacrifice for me that much more special.
Originally Posted by MarkT
But faith is given. It's a gift from God. Belief, however, comes by hearing.
I believe that both faith and belief are part of free will. We need God's help, but much of the responsibility is also ours.
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