Freewill vs. Determinism

The question is: "Is God sitting up there with his mind actively telling him 'everything' at all times... we assume this because of the word omniscience. When we say he knows it all then we assume he's thinking about everything at once. he may have a mind like ours...actually, i wonder if our brains are omnicient, we just aren't fed everything at once....is free will based on ability? if it is then that means that something gives us a free will and we're actually not free at all. Jesus followers had to be set free.

PianoPlayer

God sent his Son to die on the cross so he could raise him from the dead. That was God's will, to offer his Son, as it is written, "Lo I have come to do thy will, O God, as it is written of me in the roll of the book" Hebrews 10:7

There's plenty of evidence for what I would call determinism and predestiny. "The Lord made everything for it's purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." Proverbs 16:4

In that sense Herod and Pontius Pilate were raised to gather together against Jesus to take part in whatever God's hand and God's plan had predestined to take place. Judas was raised so that Satan would enter him to betray Jesus.

As to freewill, I agree we can choose physical things but I don't think we're free to choose spiritual things.

Are we disconnected from our bodies? In our physical form we battle temptation. Driven by what the flesh wants and led by the Spirit, our actions are pretty much determined by our knowledge and circumstances. A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. Proverbs 16:9

Led by the Spirit we can seek knowledge, wisdom and understanding and gain insight. Can we choose apart from our knowledge and understanding? Can you choose to believe 2+2 does not equal 4? Yet God can blind and give sight.

But is following the flesh a choice or a lack of self control? Isn't self control determined by the spirit?

Choosing to believe something is like mind control.

The argument for freewill is like a temptation that we can still do what we want because God has given us what we think of as freewill. We think it is a choice that we serve him. But in our arrogance we think because we can choose one thing over another, we can choose God, therefore we're free to listen to God or not.

But you don't choose God. You don't choose to become a Christian. You're either of God or you're not. You either recognize God and his Christ or you don't and either his Christ recognizes you or he doesn't know you.

We submit to Gods' will and Gods' will is always done. As for the rest, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them."

Even his disciples couldn't believe it; Who could be saved, who could resist God's will but Jesus said God had chosen them to whom he would reveal himself and they would be taught by him.

He said to his Father, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were and thou gavest them to me" John 17:6 and "I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those thou hast given me" John 17:9

Indeed Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me" so it's not a matter of choice. It's God's will. He gave us to his Son. And it's the will of the Father that the Son should lose nothing of all he was given. God reveals himself to whomever he wills. If the Father has willed it, you'll come to him.

As it is written, "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills and hardens the heart of whomever he wills".

Sure...

"how long will you turn away at my reproof? Lo! I will pour out to you my spirit, I will acquaint you with my words. "Because I called and you refused, I extended my hand and no one took notice; Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignored-- I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom; I will mock when terror overtakes you; When terror comes upon you like a storm, and your doom approaches like a whirlwind; when distress and anguish befall you. "Then they call me, but I answer not; they seek me, but find me not; Because they hated knowledge, and chose not the fear of the LORD; They ignored my counsel, they spurned all my reproof; And in their arrogance they preferred arrogance, and like fools they hated knowledge: "Now they must eat the fruit of their own way, and with their own devices be glutted." Proverb 1:23-31

~peace~

__________________
Call to me, and I will answer you; I will tell to you things great beyond reach of your knowledge. Jer. 33:3

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 1 Cor. 4:20

What does that have to do with salvation?

__________________

all this that i have
is all that you are
cutting for love
a new trophy scar
just not worth the tears
and the penance
not worth the blood
that we both pour
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die without this pain
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die
without your name
without this pain

Bulldog,

You asked if someone could show a verse that shows that "man has a complete will to choose or reject God on their own?" And I showed you...

I didn't see anywhere where you referred to 'salvation'...But, isn't refusing and ignoring God's calling, in fact, choosing to reject salvation?

"Because I called and you refused, I extended my hand and no one took notice; Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignored--"Prov. 1:24-25

~peace~

__________________
Call to me, and I will answer you; I will tell to you things great beyond reach of your knowledge. Jer. 33:3

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 1 Cor. 4:20

I was refering to salvation. Sorry about not making thatclear.

__________________

all this that i have
is all that you are
cutting for love
a new trophy scar
just not worth the tears
and the penance
not worth the blood
that we both pour
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die without this pain
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die
without your name
without this pain

God is sovereign in that nothing happens unless he allows it; thus, he ordains all that occurs. For example, he doesn't approve of serial killers, but in his sovereignty he allows them to exist. Everything that happens only happens because God allow it.

Originally Posted by G4m

I'm not a "calvinist," but if we have free will why don't people simply choose to stop sinning?

For all who are Christians, why do we continue to sin if our will's are free?

1 John 5
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I am a Calvinist and the times I have asked myself that!!
I think we as Christians are set free from the mastery of sin (everyone else is still controlled by it,hence they cannot choose the good,because sin residing in the heart controls/influences and dictates their wills,that is why they are called 'slaves' and not free)

Also perhaps a more pertinent question could be,
"if we have free will then why do we need grace at all?"

I think once you make the discovery that grace is not merely to be kind or patient to someone (that's how it is used in secular conversation) but in scripture it is a powerful force,and it is responsible for each persons salvation and all that is nessesary for salvation,including the three gifts of Faith,Repentance and coming to Christ,all are free gifts.
We are saved by grace through faith.
Free will is an enemy of free grace.the Puritans used to call it 'the back door to popery' ie,salvation by works!

I could say I chose to read the Bible and that would be true. I did. But according to Proverbs 16:9, God directs a man's steps.

But I don't think believing it was a matter of choice. Not if faith is a gift from God. I could say, hearing, I received it. I could say the facts made sense to me. I could say it was ordained by God.

According to Acts 13:48, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed", so it would follow that whoever is ordained to eternal life will believe.

According to Paul, faith comes from what is heard but of course the early Christians already believed in God and had some knowledge of God. They already knew the scriptures. That's probably why they could believe what Paul was telling them but why they did believe was ultimately because it was ordained.

I have come to think of the Bible to be like a catalogue you find yourself in. You realize, "Hey that's me", when you see yourself.

Of course the Jews believed in God and much of Proverbs is directed at them. They ignored his counsel and would have none of his reproof. They didn't choose the fear of the Lord. I guess they twisted the facts in the Bible just as many still do today. They ignore facts. They can't accept facts. They still will not listen to God. It's the spirit of rebellion.

It's irrelevant. We all have the ability to choose but whether we can choose or not is not the point.

We can choose to obey the Law for example. But can anyone choose their parents? If God is your Father, is it because you chose him? Whether you choose to believe he is your Father or not is irrelevant. It's whether he is your Father that counts. It's a matter of recognition not choice. Entirely different concepts.

I think it's a mistake to think you have chosen. I also think it's a serious mistake in the church to think you can judge or come to a decision and God is just waiting for you to decide. It's wrong and it's arrogant.