Freewill vs. Determinism

It is free will that allows us to sin. Otherwise you have to conclude that God created you because he wanted you to sin.

This topic is interesting and hotly debated through the centuries. There is an inherent tension between omniscience, omnipotence and free will. If God created the universe, and could have created it any way he wanted, but also knew exactly what was going to happen, there is no true free will. We are all just acting out the part dictated to us from the dawn of time. Under this construct even God has no free will since he knows from the dawn of time exactly what he will do. But if God actually created a creature "in his own image" capable of surprising even God (surely God could do that if he wanted to), the creation would have that much more value -- even to God. If God and man both have free will to change the future, the interplay of the Bible makes more sense: God creates the world calls it "good" and "very good;" the first humans choose to disobey him; the first born man commits murder; a few chapters later God "regrets" his creation as he contemplates its complete destruction; God promises not to do that again; God tries a covenant with man; and eventually decides to send his only son who becomes a sacrifice for the sins of man. There is no topic that goes more to the heart of our relationship with God. To me, God's creation is that much more wonderful and beautiful if we actually have an active part in the future.

I agree I think that He did. Even if you believe in free will you'd have to admit before God created you He knew you were going to fall, otherwise why was Christ chosen before the creation of the world?

I don't have free will to take over power from God, so my will is definately restrained there.

What about the 24,000 children that die from starvation everyday, where is their free will choice?

But let me ask you (this isn't an attack just a thought), do you still sin?

I do not admit that God knew man was going to fall. That is the essence of true free will. We had an opportunity to listen before the fall, we could have held up our part of the covenant with Israel, and we are given the opportunity to accept grace through Christ. Given the way we are created it may have been likely, very likely or even almost a certainty that we would fall, but God first gave us that opportunity. I do not believe God created us to play our predetermined part. We may dissappoint him at every turn, but he has given us the free will to affect our future. Why else were we created?

Christ was of one essence with the father before creation, but was he created to be crucified? Did God hope that his son would be received in glory without the absolute need for crucifixtion? Whose fault is the crucifixtion of Christ -- God's or ours? I suppose if we say it is God's fault, that lets us off the hook. If it is our fault, what better way could God prove that he has truly given us free will than by letting us kill his only son? What better way to show his mercy than by forgiving us for this, the most unforgivable sin?

Free will has little to do with "taking" powers of God. Free will is a power of God that has been given to us.

One of the most unfortunate side effects of free will is our ability to affect the will of others. There is more than enough food in this world for those children. We have been given the resources, technology, and ability to help them, yet we fail. We fight wars, we use food and economic clout for political ends, and we fail to address human needs that are so apparent. How God must suffer at the choices we, who are made in his image, make. What better way to prove to us that our will is truly free than when we are free to choose evil.

Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy upon me, a sinner.

OK

I think the scriptures point to it:

Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Isaiah 53
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Yeah, that was just a garbage statement by me, to say that we are still ultimately restrained by God, our wills are not 100% free.

But those that starve, or innoncents that die in a war, etc. their will was not free. Someone else's action removed their ability to chose.

Why do you freely choose to sin?

Not sure based on what you referenced what you think the scriptures are pointing to here. If you are talking about the book of life, scripture does not say how or who caused the names to be written. If you are tlaking about the Lamb, certainly God and his word were around from the beginning, but it does not say he had to have been slain. At the time of Revelation the writer knew what had happened. (predetermination is always easy when you look only at the past) Again, God was prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice from the begining, and whether he thought it likely or almost a certainty that the sacrifice would have to be made, God gave the world a chance.

Agreed. We do not have the free will to assign ourselves superpowers.

I guess this boils down to the key difference between us. You must conclude that it is God who decided those children must starve, not ever be given a chance to know God, to obtain salvation, or even live. While a God like that is worthy of fear and awe, he is not worthy of worship. I believe that God hoped those children would be fed with the resources given to us, that we would help them find salvation, and that with his help the glory of creation could triumph for all to see. We failed, not God. Do we always fail? No. Christians are involved in feeding the hungry, spreading the word, and protecting the innocent. God rejoices with man in those successes.

I do not always choose sin. Many times, and with God's help, I can resist sin and choose for this moment or any moment -- not to sin. Other times, through ignorance or selfishness, I do sin. God did not make me do that. That is a cop out. That is the choice given to me by God. If I choose God, all of heaven rejoices in my choice.