Creation/Evolution Non-Participant Commentary & InvitationsComment on existent debates, invite or challenge members to debates, and plan your debates here!
Yes but the human species as a whole has been getting bigger.
As a whole (and actually more than one human species). So what? Insects as a whole have got smaller since the Carboniferous (just so you know, there are more insect species than all other animals combined... a pretty successful group, I'd say) If one thing got larger that doesn't mean it's a rule of evolution.
Yet reptiles as a whole are much smaller.
Smaller than what?
If they actually became ammals why are there still so many reptiles around and larger ones like the Komoto virtually unchanged??
If I am in this world why are there still so many grandmothers of mine around?
Do you see the mistake in your argument? Mammal-like "reptiles" (not true reptiles but let's not go into cladistics now ), or rather, some of them, were the ancestors of mammals. There were probably thousands of different reptile and mammal-like species around in the Triassic, but only one lineage of them actually gave rise to mammals. The others either died out, or begat to other things (crocs, lizards, birds, what have you) And the ancestor of mammals didn' t just change into a mammal miraculously, but through gradual modifications in its descendants, just as you weren't formed by your mother suddenly changing into you. (By the way, there isn't actually a sharp distinction between mammal-like reptile and mammal. It's more like drawing a line in the middle of a rainbow and say "left of this line is orange and right of this line is red")
It's not mammal-like reptiles as a group turning into mammals, it's rather a lineage of mammal-like reptiles becoming more mammal-like generation by generation, while some of their relatives may go on very different paths or hardly change at all.
__________________ "There is much we do not understand about the history of life, and the same will be true of our grandchildren. But, then, if we knew all there was to know, scientific interest would cease. Textbooks may portray science as a codification of facts, but it is really a disciplined way of asking about the unknown." - A.H. Knoll, Life on a Young Planet
"Come on, put your bloody thinking caps on!" - Dr Tony Prave, geology lecture
As a whole (and actually more than one human species). So what? Insects as a whole have got smaller since the Carboniferous (just so you know, there are more insect species than all other animals combined... a pretty successful group, I'd say) If one thing got larger that doesn't mean it's a rule of evolution.
Smaller than what?
If I am in this world why are there still so many grandmothers of mine around?
Do you see the mistake in your argument? Mammal-like "reptiles" (not true reptiles but let's not go into cladistics now ), or rather, some of them, were the ancestors of mammals. There were probably thousands of different reptile and mammal-like species around in the Triassic, but only one lineage of them actually gave rise to mammals. The others either died out, or begat to other things (crocs, lizards, birds, what have you) And the ancestor of mammals didn' t just change into a mammal miraculously, but through gradual modifications in its descendants, just as you weren't formed by your mother suddenly changing into you. (By the way, there isn't actually a sharp distinction between mammal-like reptile and mammal. It's more like drawing a line in the middle of a rainbow and say "left of this line is orange and right of this line is red")
It's not mammal-like reptiles as a group turning into mammals, it's rather a lineage of mammal-like reptiles becoming more mammal-like generation by generation, while some of their relatives may go on very different paths or hardly change at all.
Do you realize how illogical that sounds??
Why would a reeptiles relative not evolve with climate change etc .??
__________________ 2 Timothy 2 : 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
Why would a reeptiles relative not evolve with climate change etc .??
They do, they just don't change that much at first glance. Let's stay with climate change. To fight that, you don't always need to grow hair and teats or whatever. Maybe you need to adjust your breeding season, develop an ability to hibernate (if winters are cold), change your behaviour to avoid overheating (if some season is hot), excrete more concentrated urine to save water (if climate is drier) - you see, all of the above can help an animal survive climate change but none will change its appearance in any major way.
Besides, the "lizard" body plan you see in many reptiles is roughly the basic body plan of reptiles, this is the way they first appeared. Most of them have kept it because it works in a variety of environment with only minor modifications (eg flattened tails for swimming, short strong legs for digging, etc). Many lizards are good runners, some are great climbers, yet others are excellent burrowers without much alteration to the basic "lizard" form.
And many reptiles other than mammal ancestors have changed the original "lizard" body in major ways: just look at turtles or birds for great extant examples (or snakes, for that matter).
Natural selection doesn't always produce spectacular results, only when such results are needed or simply useful.
__________________ "There is much we do not understand about the history of life, and the same will be true of our grandchildren. But, then, if we knew all there was to know, scientific interest would cease. Textbooks may portray science as a codification of facts, but it is really a disciplined way of asking about the unknown." - A.H. Knoll, Life on a Young Planet
"Come on, put your bloody thinking caps on!" - Dr Tony Prave, geology lecture
They do, they just don't change that much at first glance. Let's stay with climate change. To fight that, you don't always need to grow hair and teats or whatever. Maybe you need to adjust your breeding season, develop an ability to hibernate (if winters are cold), change your behaviour to avoid overheating (if some season is hot), excrete more concentrated urine to save water (if climate is drier) - you see, all of the above can help an animal survive climate change but none will change its appearance in any major way.
Bad paragraph. You are using a finalist vision : you actually says that species change because of a climate change. That is not the case at all. Climate change kill individuals who are not able to survive (to low/high temperature etc.). Those who stay alive have already characteristics which permit to fit better in the new environment.
Bad paragraph. You are using a finalist vision : you actually says that species change because of a climate change. That is not the case at all. Climate change kill individuals who are not able to survive (to low/high temperature etc.). Those who stay alive have already characteristics which permit to fit better in the new environment.
I didn't intend it to sound teleological (if anyone, a student of evolutionary biology should know better). But species do change because of a climate change. It may be that out of a population of 1000 only 10 have a trait that comes in useful under a different climate. After the climate actually changes and selection pressure kills off most of the rest, the majority of the population will have the trait. So while no individual member of that population has changed in response to climate change, the population as a whole did.
__________________ "There is much we do not understand about the history of life, and the same will be true of our grandchildren. But, then, if we knew all there was to know, scientific interest would cease. Textbooks may portray science as a codification of facts, but it is really a disciplined way of asking about the unknown." - A.H. Knoll, Life on a Young Planet
"Come on, put your bloody thinking caps on!" - Dr Tony Prave, geology lecture
I wonder why science seems to think humans are getting bigger and smarter??
You speak of this as if it has anything to do with evolution. The time frame over which humans have been getting dramitically larger is far too short to be due to genetic differences. Smarter is very open to question, better educated, yes and for many meathosd of measurment that means the measured value says they are smarter.
You speak of this as if it has anything to do with evolution. The time frame over which humans have been getting dramitically larger is far too short to be due to genetic differences. Smarter is very open to question, better educated, yes and for many meathosd of measurment that means the measured value says they are smarter.
I like to hope Carey meant the growth from australopithecines through early Homo to us.
__________________ "There is much we do not understand about the history of life, and the same will be true of our grandchildren. But, then, if we knew all there was to know, scientific interest would cease. Textbooks may portray science as a codification of facts, but it is really a disciplined way of asking about the unknown." - A.H. Knoll, Life on a Young Planet
"Come on, put your bloody thinking caps on!" - Dr Tony Prave, geology lecture
You speak of this as if it has anything to do with evolution. The time frame over which humans have been getting dramitically larger is far too short to be due to genetic differences. Smarter is very open to question, better educated, yes and for many meathosd of measurment that means the measured value says they are smarter.
Ooops!
Not quite so my friend.
In the last hundred years alone, the chinese people have increased their average height by six inches, but due to genetic differences their heights are still noticably smaller than europeans.
So wy the sudden leap in chinese growth rates?
Better diet. Pure and simple. The genes were already there, they were just never reaching their full potential.
__________________ "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Professor Richard Dawkins.
"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." - Mark Twain
"The inspiration of the bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it." - Robert G. Ingersoll
Ooops!
Not quite so my friend.
In the last hundred years alone, the chinese people have increased their average height by six inches, but due to genetic differences their heights are still noticably smaller than europeans.
So wy the sudden leap in chinese growth rates?
Better diet. Pure and simple. The genes were already there, they were just never reaching their full potential.
So if we eat better we get bigger and smarter??
So better food + evolution??
__________________ 2 Timothy 2 : 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
If you spend large parts of your early life deprived of essential nutrients/vitamins/minerals, you well neve acheive your maximum growth potential.
To extrapolate to intelligence, without early stimulation of the cerebral cortex you will never maximise your grey matter.
Note - the evolution bit has already happened.......
__________________ "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Professor Richard Dawkins.
"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." - Mark Twain
"The inspiration of the bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it." - Robert G. Ingersoll
), or rather, some of them, were the ancestors of mammals. There were probably thousands of different reptile and mammal-like species around in the Triassic, but only one lineage of them actually gave rise to mammals. The others either died out, or begat to other things (crocs, lizards, birds, what have you) And the ancestor of mammals didn' t just change into a mammal miraculously, but through gradual modifications in its descendants, just as you weren't formed by your mother suddenly changing into you. (By the way, there isn't actually a sharp distinction between mammal-like reptile and mammal. It's more like drawing a line in the middle of a rainbow and say "left of this line is orange and right of this line is red")
Linear Mode
