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29th September 2007, 09:33 PM
|  | Dark am I, yet lovely.....Song of Songs 1:5
     
 | | Join Date: 25th July 2007 Location: Where da party at!
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Reps: 126,131,285 (power: 126,139) | |  Question for our dear PaladinValer! And anybody else that wants to answer!
I'm addressing this to PalVal in particular because we had a talk about it before but anybody can respond. Remember when I asked if we could petition our reletives that have died to pray for us? You said yes and while I didn't agree with the practice, it made lots of sense to me. Well, somebody else said that you can't becasue they can't interact with us an only our spiritual ancestors can. That kinda confused me so I was wondering if you would care to share more on the matter. Thanks a million! 
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I am truly sorry to say this, but I have completly given up on organized Christianity. I am very disappointed in it. It baffles me how we all read the same book and yet walk in so many different ways and condemn each other in the process.
"Christiandom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it."- Soren Kierkegaard
"Many people profess Christianity. Very few live it- almost none. And when you live it people may think you're crazy. It has been truthfully said that the world is equally shocked by one who repudiates Christianity as by one who practices it." -Peace Pilgrim
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.- Philippians 2:12
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29th September 2007, 10:46 PM
| | Dark am I, yet lovely.....Song of Songs 1:5
| | Join Date: 25th July 2007 Location: Where da party at!
Posts: 2,943
Blessings: 114,541 My Mood
Reps: 126,131,285 (power: 126,139) | | | Ok false alarm! They meant people who weren't Christians! But this will still be a great topic. I would feel far more comfortable petitiong ancestors!
__________________
I am truly sorry to say this, but I have completly given up on organized Christianity. I am very disappointed in it. It baffles me how we all read the same book and yet walk in so many different ways and condemn each other in the process.
"Christiandom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it."- Soren Kierkegaard
"Many people profess Christianity. Very few live it- almost none. And when you live it people may think you're crazy. It has been truthfully said that the world is equally shocked by one who repudiates Christianity as by one who practices it." -Peace Pilgrim
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.- Philippians 2:12
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30th September 2007, 12:15 AM
|  | Disciple of the great Warrior King
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| | Join Date: 12th February 2005 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Reps: 852,100,495,703,481 (power: 852,100,495,714) | | Originally Posted by DarkNLovely  I'm addressing this to PalVal in particular because we had a talk about it before but anybody can respond. Remember when I asked if we could petition our reletives that have died to pray for us? You said yes and while I didn't agree with the practice, it made lots of sense to me. Well, somebody else said that you can't becasue they can't interact with us an only our spiritual ancestors can. That kinda confused me so I was wondering if you would care to share more on the matter. Thanks a million!
the deceased...even in Christ...are not omnipotent or omnipresent...so they cannot hear or know what you are praying for....I believe they do pray..for us..as we can pray for them...but all prayer should be focused to God through Christ and not "on behalf of" or "by" a deceased saint..does that make any sense? If not, I'll try to find the link to N.T. Wright's discussion on the topic..
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"Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair." G.K. Chesterton |
30th September 2007, 12:52 AM
| | Dark am I, yet lovely.....Song of Songs 1:5
| | Join Date: 25th July 2007 Location: Where da party at!
Posts: 2,943
Blessings: 114,541 My Mood
Reps: 126,131,285 (power: 126,139) | | | I agree with Amyn! It's just interesting still as it is one way or another a part of Christianity. I don't believe it personally, but I do not condemn others that do.
__________________
I am truly sorry to say this, but I have completly given up on organized Christianity. I am very disappointed in it. It baffles me how we all read the same book and yet walk in so many different ways and condemn each other in the process.
"Christiandom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it."- Soren Kierkegaard
"Many people profess Christianity. Very few live it- almost none. And when you live it people may think you're crazy. It has been truthfully said that the world is equally shocked by one who repudiates Christianity as by one who practices it." -Peace Pilgrim
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.- Philippians 2:12
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30th September 2007, 06:11 AM
|  | reformed mystic
 
| | Join Date: 18th July 2004
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Reps: 10,076,193,046,393,122 (power: 10,076,193,046,409) | | Keep an eye out here for the articles as they become available online.
In the meantime: Prayers for the Dead |
30th September 2007, 06:49 AM
| | Senior Contributor
 
| | Join Date: 6th July 2004 Location: A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
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Reps: 686,861,812,702,162,816 (power: 686,861,812,702,202) | | Originally Posted by Aymn27 the deceased...even in Christ...are not omnipotent or omnipresent...so they cannot hear or know what you are praying for....I believe they do pray..for us..as we can pray for them...but all prayer should be focused to God through Christ and not "on behalf of" or "by" a deceased saint..does that make any sense? If not, I'll try to find the link to N.T. Wright's discussion on the topic..
It would be good to read +Tom on the matter if you can find it.
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"Goodness is stronger than evil,
love is stronger than hate,
light is stronger than darkness,
life is stronger than death,
victory is ours through him who loved us."
(+Desmond Tutu) |
30th September 2007, 10:09 PM
|  | Orthodox Catholic in the English Style
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| | Join Date: 7th April 2004 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
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Reps: 604,943,049,641,157,376 (power: 604,943,049,641,184) | | Originally Posted by DarkNLovely I'm addressing this to PalVal in particular because we had a talk about it before but anybody can respond. Remember when I asked if we could petition our reletives that have died to pray for us? You said yes and while I didn't agree with the practice, it made lots of sense to me. Well, somebody else said that you can't becasue they can't interact with us an only our spiritual ancestors can. That kinda confused me so I was wondering if you would care to share more on the matter. Thanks a million!
The biggest thing that trips people up when it comes to the petitioning of those who have passed on is that they often assume that such prayers are somehow sources of grace that we give unto each other.
Petitioning the Saints and the saints is not a salvific act. While Grace can be a result, it isn't because of someone's actual interceedence but because of the grace that naturally comes when you willfully cooperate with the Holy Spirit. In other words, there is not a "treasury of merits" found in heaven, but there are two other parts of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that we can turn to for comfort, compassion, love, and communion.
When we pray, they pray. When they pray, we pray. When we celebrate the Mass, they too celebrate it with us. Prayer is not really ever personal. If you need reference, take a look at the Lord's Prayer:
"Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your Name.
Your Kingdom come; Your Will be done,
On Earth as in heaven.
Give us each day our daily bread,
And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial,
And rescue us from the evil one.
For the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory are Your's, unto the ages of ages.
Amen."
Even this supposedly personal prayer between "Abba and son" is simply filled with the theology in which I speak of.
When we pray that, it isn't on behalf of just the person who says it, it is on behalf of all who believe. Don't those who have passed on still believe? Cannot we still pray for God's mercy for them? Even if you were to think that their fate is sealed, is it not our furvent duty to invoke God's mercy even on those who are probably doomed anyway? Why else did Abraham bargain with God? We knew the people of Sodom were doomed and so did Abraham. Yet he still asked God to spare them.
Petitioning with those who have passed on is simply another way the Holy Spirit connects us. It is simply an active application of our communion with them. We don't need to establish it; it already exists!
Originally Posted by Aymn27 the deceased...even in Christ...are not omnipotent or omnipresent...so they cannot hear or know what you are praying for.
The Holy Spirit has not left them. We are in communion with them through the same Holy Spirit that is with us.
Prayer goes beyond simply senses. It touches upon the very soul.
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For You are the Lord Most High, of great compassion, long-suffering, and very merciful, and You relent at human suffering. O Lord, according to Your great goodness You have promised repentance and forgiveness to those who have sinned against You, and in the multitude of Your mercies You have appointed repentance for sinners so that they may be saved.
-Prayer of Manasseh verse 7 (NRSV)
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30th September 2007, 10:39 PM
|  | Formerly Jtbdad Christian on every board!
| | Join Date: 14th April 2004 Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,040
Blessings: 87,354
Reps: 3,058,096,514,874,249 (power: 3,058,096,514,895) | | | Those who have gone on before us are not omniscient, nor are they omnipresent. I see no reason to believe that they can hear our requests for intercession. That does not mean that they cannot intercede as they are still part of the Body. I certainly intend to intercede for those left behind when I die, but I truly do not believe that I will know know when and what they may ask me to intercede for.
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
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30th September 2007, 11:15 PM
|  | Legend
 
| | Join Date: 8th December 2004
Posts: 33,726
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Reps: 4,224,035,461,574,154,752 (power: 4,224,035,461,574,197) | | Originally Posted by jtbdad Those who have gone on before us are not omniscient, nor are they omnipresent. I see no reason to believe that they can hear our requests for intercession. That does not mean that they cannot intercede as they are still part of the Body. I certainly intend to intercede for those left behind when I die, but I truly do not believe that I will know know when and what they may ask me to intercede for.
Right. The arguments made for praying to the saints usually are based upon a verbal slight of hand.
1) confusing, intentionally or not, praying FOR us with being prayed to BY us.
2) presenting"Communion of Saints" as if it means being in touch with each other rather than its actual meaning--the unity of all believers, here or in the afterlife.
3) Speaking as though it is taken for granted that the dead can hear us, and
4) Theorizing that we need a human intermediary in order to induce God to grant our requests, when Jesus taught the opposite. |
2nd October 2007, 11:03 AM
|  | Aspirant
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| | Join Date: 3rd September 2004
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Blessings: 185,809
Reps: 7,876 (power: 24) | | | I am not sure we can find anyone rejection of the idea that we can pray with the saints, before the Reformation. Again, this is another belief which is a reaction against Roman and has good intention, but is also a great example of what not checking personal exegesis against the Church teaching can do. In this case, one problem is that it causes disunity.
Here is a piece of the Gregorian Canon from the 6th century - let's see if Saints are prayed with during the Eucharist:
In communion with, and venerating first the memory of the glorious and ever-virgin Mary, Mother of our Lord and God Jesus Christ; and also of thy blessed apostles and martyrs Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude: Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, Cypian, Laurence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian and of all thy saints, through whose prayers grant that in all things we may be guarded by the help of thy protection. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
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"If a child refuses to accept its father or mother, that child is not a liberal, that child is a brat!" - His Eminence Cardinal Francais Arinze.
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