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4th October 2007, 06:33 PM
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Reps: 688,958,133,294,077,440 (power: 688,958,133,294,117) | | Originally Posted by jtbdad  ebia I think that what Albion was referring to as being unbiblical are the notions that either we can petition a saint to do something for us, such as granting us grace or helping us find our keys etc, or that we can ask a saint to petition the Father on our behalf.
I can see the objection to the former, I don't see that the latter is clearly unbiblical - where does the bible draw a distinction between asking your minister (say) to pray for you and asking a saint to pray for you?
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4th October 2007, 08:10 PM
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Reps: 631,453,808,424,465,664 (power: 631,453,808,424,492) | | | Petitioning St. Andrew to help us find lost things means asking St. Andrew to pray to God that we find our lost things.
Its simply a contraction.
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For You are the Lord Most High, of great compassion, long-suffering, and very merciful, and You relent at human suffering. O Lord, according to Your great goodness You have promised repentance and forgiveness to those who have sinned against You, and in the multitude of Your mercies You have appointed repentance for sinners so that they may be saved.
-Prayer of Manasseh verse 7 (NRSV)
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4th October 2007, 09:56 PM
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Reps: 3,058,096,514,874,249 (power: 3,058,096,514,895) | | Originally Posted by ebia I can see the objection to the former, I don't see that the latter is clearly unbiblical - where does the bible draw a distinction between asking your minister (say) to pray for you and asking a saint to pray for you?
I think that is where people start asking questions such as can the saints hear us, can they respond to what might be millions of petitions etc?
We truly have, as far as I know, no evidence that the saints can hear us and if they can that their prayers are any more "influential" than our own. At least with our Pastor we know he heard us and understands what we wish for him to pray for. I have no such knowledge that the same is true for St. Peter for example.
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Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
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4th October 2007, 09:57 PM
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Reps: 3,058,096,514,874,249 (power: 3,058,096,514,895) | | Originally Posted by PaladinValer Petitioning St. Andrew to help us find lost things means asking St. Andrew to pray to God that we find our lost things.
Its simply a contraction.
To some perhaps I know for a fact it is not for all.
Additionally why? Why would St. Andrew's prayers that I find my keys be any more influential than my own?
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
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4th October 2007, 10:29 PM
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Reps: 688,958,133,294,077,440 (power: 688,958,133,294,117) | | Originally Posted by jtbdad I think that is where people start asking questions such as can the saints hear us, can they respond to what might be millions of petitions etc?
We truly have, as far as I know, no evidence that the saints can hear us and if they can that their prayers are any more "influential" than our own. At least with our Pastor we know he heard us and understands what we wish for him to pray for. I have no such knowledge that the same is true for St. Peter for example.
Granted that it does assume that St Peter can hear, understand, has the time to take account of the millions of requests he gets etc, but since the bible doesn't really clear that up either way it seems to be going a bit far to call that "unbiblical" (which, to me at least, implies contrary to with the bible says).
__________________
"Goodness is stronger than evil,
love is stronger than hate,
light is stronger than darkness,
life is stronger than death,
victory is ours through him who loved us."
(+Desmond Tutu) |
4th October 2007, 10:35 PM
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Reps: 688,958,133,294,077,440 (power: 688,958,133,294,117) | | Originally Posted by jtbdad To some perhaps I know for a fact it is not for all.
Do you mean that some people are 'dodgy' on the issue, or some prayers? Additionally why? Why would St. Andrew's prayers that I find my keys be any more influential than my own? Hopefully the prayer to St Andy would be in addition to, rather than instead of, your own. Just as one would expect a request to your minister to pray for something would be in addition to... (I will admit that some sources/people do imply that the saints prayers are especially effective.)
__________________
"Goodness is stronger than evil,
love is stronger than hate,
light is stronger than darkness,
life is stronger than death,
victory is ours through him who loved us."
(+Desmond Tutu) |
4th October 2007, 10:44 PM
| | Formerly Jtbdad Christian on every board!
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Reps: 3,058,096,514,874,249 (power: 3,058,096,514,895) | | Originally Posted by ebia Granted that it does assume that St Peter can hear, understand, has the time to take account of the millions of requests he gets etc, but since the bible doesn't really clear that up either way it seems to be going a bit far to call that "unbiblical" (which, to me at least, implies contrary to with the bible says).
You see to me that is an interesting distinctive. I do not read "unbiblical" as meaning contrary to Scripture but rather not supported by Scripture.
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
|
4th October 2007, 10:52 PM
| | Formerly Jtbdad Christian on every board!
| | Join Date: 14th April 2004 Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,044
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Reps: 3,058,096,514,874,249 (power: 3,058,096,514,895) | | Originally Posted by ebia Do you mean that some people are 'dodgy' on the issue, or some prayers?
Well certainly some prayers, especially some Marian prayers, but I was speaking specifically about some individuals who believe that Saints actually affect some type of change, provide for some grace or take some kind of action for them. I know one wonderful middle aged woman who believes that the saints actually take her hand and lead her to lost things etc. the prayer to St Andy would be in addition to, rather than instead of, your own. Just as one would expect a request to your minister to pray for something would be in addition to... (I will admit that some sources/people do imply that the saints prayers are especially effective.)
True.
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
|
4th October 2007, 11:41 PM
| | Orthodox Catholic in the English Style
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Reps: 631,453,808,424,465,664 (power: 631,453,808,424,492) | | Originally Posted by jtbdad To some perhaps I know for a fact it is not for all.
Does that change or refute the orthodox understanding of Saintly inteventions however?
Additionally why? Why would St. Andrew's prayers that I find my keys be any more influential than my own?
Prayer is something communal.
Besides, what is wrong with asking someone to, say, pray that you get the job you've applied for? Or that someone recover from the accident she was in? Or even even that his struggle with understanding his discernment?
Saintly intercession may be improperly practiced by some, but by those who do it correctly, it is merely asking others to join with you in prayer, not that they pray and you do not.
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For You are the Lord Most High, of great compassion, long-suffering, and very merciful, and You relent at human suffering. O Lord, according to Your great goodness You have promised repentance and forgiveness to those who have sinned against You, and in the multitude of Your mercies You have appointed repentance for sinners so that they may be saved.
-Prayer of Manasseh verse 7 (NRSV)
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5th October 2007, 12:53 AM
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Reps: 688,958,133,294,077,440 (power: 688,958,133,294,117) | | Originally Posted by jtbdad You see to me that is an interesting distinctive. I do not read "unbiblical" as meaning contrary to Scripture but rather not supported by Scripture.
Another entry for my mental list of potential sources of misunderstanding.
So, to what extent do your objections still stand if it's properly understood as per P.V.?
__________________
"Goodness is stronger than evil,
love is stronger than hate,
light is stronger than darkness,
life is stronger than death,
victory is ours through him who loved us."
(+Desmond Tutu) | | |
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