The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Bible [or 'some sinners have learned how to read']
Jesus said nothing whatsoever about establishing a massive religion in this earth, in fact what he did say is that Satan would do that, eventually uniting the world in worldwide religion against a few saints who still follow him by the time he returns [Rev 13:3-10, Matt 7:14, etc]
Unsurprisingly then , and as prophesied [2 Thessalonians 2:3 ], religion of sinners is fallen away, divided and thus obviously mostly untrue [since there can only be ONE truth of God] ... we can check that in fact all recorded modern mass christian dogma is mistaken simply by checking it against all the scriptures before we commit to claiming faith in it.. faith in the Law of God, described simply as love, and commanded by Jesus to his followers, is very different than faith in religious dogma ,much of which is contrary to some scriptures ... worth checking it then against every word of God ? :-
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
We can thus trace in history of the creation of translations of the bible, the dogmas of the time which shaped the translations ... people trying to make scripture say what they have committed to believing before translating it ... it is a way of undoing many of the mistakes and of escaping the divided fallen-away religions taught by sinners today to rediscover what the saints and Jesus actually said.
To give a relevant example, what did Jesus actually say was the only reason that he first came ? :-
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
This then is the means by which Jesus intends to save all sinners, but most who cal themselves 'Christian' do not even know he said this, let alone knowing who the House of Israel are or that the new covenant of grace is ONLY with those whose fathers broke the old covenant, with the descendants of the House of Israel and the House of Judah ...
Do you see by reading your own bible for yourself how far religious tradition has strayed , modern 'Christianity' mostly no longer seeks out the House of Israel that the disciples of Jesus were commanded to go and find, scattered amongst the gentiles... modern 'Christians' simply do not obey Jesus' commands to the saints [and Paul later repeated the quest set by Jesus]:-
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Read it for yourself then, note that the new covenant is only with those whose ancestors broke the old covenant !!!
Note that Israel was rejected but now is FORGIVEN in this new covenant with them [originally recorded in Hebrew in the OT - Jer 31:31-34 - so one can check ]
those few words about the bible simply demolish the dogma of almost every modern so-called 'Christian' denomination ... millions must have read the words of the saints , but believe instead what sinners teach these days , never able to see what is written because they already committed to following this or that religious creed of sinners ...
the problem originates in creeds seeking to grow and grow , it does not suit those who wish to control other's beliefs in this world to accept that only FEW can find the narrow strait way [of sainthood] in this life :-
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Jesus in his revelation says how few that truly is :-
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
That means only about two thousand saints alive at any one time, following Jesus in almost the two millennia since he first came
That just ain't enough people to lead for most religious leaders , so they pretend it doesn't matter about sin , that one doesn't need to give up sin to be accepted by God [but that there are other sinners who don't believe what THEY say, who are lost forever to endless tortures ... two classes of sinners , sinners who believe what their sinning leaders tell them and those who see the nonsense of that and reject religion ... what does the scripture say from the saints though, very different than religion of sinners? :-
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Jesus himself underlines this by stating categorically that he will take no sinners at his return :-
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This is why the translations of scripture have been mangled, they were made by those within religion of sinners, they could not help biasing their translations toward their particular dogma ...
Why did Jesus say he will only take the few saints at his return , which caused religious leaders to tell a different story so they could have many followers ?
The scripture explains the reason , the few are only the 'firstfruits' , taken first only because they are to rule and minister in the kingdom of God , they are the ones required at the beginning... simple as that!
We know from Matt 7 that the MANY take the broad path and are destroyed [in death] , but what religion does not bother to notice rather deliberately is that the many are saved too, just later according to Jesus revelation of the future -Rev 7:9-10
why then has no saint translated scripture ? ...and why did Jesus not have his words recorded at the time?
Quite simply there was no need!
Paul came to teach the gentiles about the role of Israel, that God had to say for sake of prophecy, to show His power over time and death, who His rulers and saints would be in his kingdom ... He chose to select a rebellious stiff-necked people, Israel, just to show that anyone could be brought to love , even this rebellious bunch who broke His first covenant with them , rejected His Law ... their new covenant is unconditional, He takes them this time as His people [by means of His truth poured out on the remnant few of Israel that Jesus will take first ... but note that eventually He will pour out His spirit on all flesh -Joel 2:28- it is just that a few must be made ready first as ministers and rulers over the many coming later...
That is why one cannot find a good translation of scripture without bias , some have even been edited despite God's warnings about the fate of anyone who does that ... the message survives in most translations, and one can undo much of the harm of divided dogmatism, the disease of the age which eventually unites all the world in false belief against perhaps just two thousand saints... the story of scripture goes on way beyond this earth though ... enjoy ?
The 'antichristos' as necessary world power over religion and state united ...
Consider what how the pope would react to a man who claimed to have authority of God over him ... accusations of blasphemy, heresy, and in consequence being cut off from the Roman churches,excommunicated ... no matter if this were the return of Christ!
God requires religion and someone to lead it into worship of the 'antichristos' , the Christ figure who is not the Hebrew Jesus of scripture, the true Messiah of Israel's new covenant ... but Jesus' 'congregation' of saints needs no ma in place of the son of God , nor does scripture prophesy any such leader for the saints i their lonesome assignment from Jesus of finding remnants of the lost scattered paganised House of Israel al over the world , so few [Matt 7:14] in the 'harvest' , that leads so many to salvation afterward [Rev 7:910] who took the broad way of the many,not few, in this life...
We thus see the role of the antichrist and divided religious tradition of modern Christianity in God's plan, God simply does not require more than a few at the beginning of the kingdom come to the many, not more than a few are needed to minis to and rule in the kingdom , and they needs must be the first fruits of the spirit's work of salvation, yet it would be pointless if modern religion of sinners were true, why would God even bother resurrecting all from hell if they were already condemned through dying in sin [many of them never even having heard of Jesus]?
Why set up kings and priests except to rule and minister in the kingdom ? How else are the many who go by the broad way saved (as Jesus says they will be Rev 7:9-10] than by works after the wages of their sin in this life are paid in death ?
Jesus tells us how few are saints in this life, sealed by the spirit to cease from sin under the new covenant , he even tells us which sons of Jacob [re-named 'Israel' by God] the saints are descended from and that the new covenant is only with those whose ancestors ['fathers']broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-12] ...
thus the work of Rome ,and the climax of power of the antichrist , where the whole world unites in belief of Satan's deceit [Rev 13:3-10] of man through religion and the state [bar only the few, the saints] is NECESSARY to God's plan , mankind is deluded a while simply to make tie for setting up he saints as priests and kings in the kingdom FIRST they truly need to be there at the beginning , the few must be first...
But Jesus promises the salvation of the many afterward [Rev 7:9-10] , not just the first few in this life , and we know that the many go the broad way through destruction in death , but are not lost , Jesus says they are judged by works [not grace] but they cannot begin until freed from hell in the second resurrection [the first resurrection being for the just, the few, the saints of this earth by their new covenant of grace because they are required at the beginning of the kingdom finally come , not just in the hearts of the few saints now, but to work Jesus' promise for salvation to the many [Rev 7:9-10]
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
to whom would these few priests minister but the many of the second resurrection when all sinners of this are freed from sin by death and freed from hell by resurrection of the unjust :-
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Note above that the first resurrection is for the just, the saints of this life who died before Jesus' return
thus death and the second resurrection simply have the effect of queuing up over 12 billion sinners until the kingdom of god is ready to release them from hell and to judge them from their works in the kingdom after God returns them all to life :-
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
For the many then, for all who are still sinners at death or by Jesus' return, then death is how they are freed of sin, the new covenant is only for the few and says who it is for , those God chose to be His priests and kings eventually , those He prophesied would be to show His power of prophecy , the children [descendants] of those who broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] ,it is explicit and it is God's covenant , and it says the children of Israel are forgiven now, whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-13], this is no 'spiriitual Israel' made up of sinners of modern divided religion but as God says, it is the children of those who broke the old covenant , it is both Houses of ancient Israel ... the Jews being more easy to convey the news of the new covenant to because they already read the Prophets[Jer 31:31-34], Jesus was sent by God first to the lost paganised House of Israel [scattered worldwide long before the Jews for idol-worship in which they continue until the disciples and saints they 'ordain' in their search show them the new covenant with Israel's two Houses.]
The "strong delusion" of sinners by religion and by states in this world, that leads to one world government and one world religion [against the few remaining saints by that time] is not only sent by God, but thus necessary o simply get the timing right for the second phase of salvation [Rev 7:9-10] of the many , after only few find the strait narrow way [Matt 7:14] in this life since they must minister and rule the many righteusly [ unlike the rule and divided religion of this world's priests and kings]
2 Thessalonians 2:11 ...God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Satan has a major role in God's plan then , as the essential antichrist , climactic product of the apostasy of modern divided religion when it unites to delude the whole word [bar a few saints that God requires separated to be ready to serve at teh beginning of the kingdom come to the many]
It is rather obvious that this is still future [some think not], beacause Israel is still far from being a holy nation of priests and still not united [Jews with House of Israel] under one king, the Messiah, the Christ ... clearly then it is future as Jesus indeed also says they will rule on earth, but NOT THIS EARTH :-
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The kingdom of God for the many is thus future, beyond the end of this earth, where the many , freed from previous sin in death, live righteously and are judged by works after death in the kingdom,where the few minister [which is why only few are taken at Jesus' return, in this world, which is why the new covenant says it is with the children of Israel, now forgiven]
God really did then declare His plan, the end written in the beginning , to show His power to cause men to love by means of His truth given by his spirit [eventually to all -Joel 2:28, but for now only the few, so that the many do not 'gatecrash' before the priesthood and kings are ready to serve the many]
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
The antichrist is more than Rome then , it is the compromise in amalgamation of world religions and secular power in unity of word government against the few who maintain the strait and narrow [Mat 7:14] ... the many have to be deluded a while , but Jesus says countless many of all nations, not just Israel, are saved eventually [Rev 7:9-10], just that the many cannot be first because the few have to be there first to minister to the many later...
It takes a while to integrate the whole word of God in scripture into one story , few even believe that NT and OT are compatible because modern religions ficus almost entirely on one or other or none... but then few will be saints in this life according to Jesus [Rev 7:3-8] , Matthew[7:14] , Jude and Enoch [Jude 1:14], etc ... one cannot ,even by simple counting, believe both Jesus and modern Christainity of sinners...
In Greek 'antichristos' means both 'against Christ' and 'in place of Christ' , we can easily see from even reading te new covenant that the modern notonof teh gospel is already false, that Crstinaity denies the sole purpose Jesus set for himself and his disciples :-
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
We see then the power of the antichrist manifest in religion today ,all around, not yet united [showing its apostasy clearly by that] [and that power emblazoned, dominating this site,as one might expect ] but one should realise from te above that one cannot oppose it, there is no means to save the masses of sinners of this world from being freed from sin in death, and it would not happen without the strong delusion sent from God on the manifestation of Satan as the antichriist, cast down on earth from heaven as mortal man [just as Jesus, to die, but unlike Jesus to die justly, for blasphemy]
One cannot be 'anti-religion' even when one sees how it must be and is apostate from scripture , because it is essential to God's plan, Jesus had no intention of preventing the power of Satan over the whole world becoming a reality , only of keeping the few which God gave him separate from it ... thus one can tell by even counting who is the antichrist ,and rely on the numbers swelling when world government arrives as predicted by Jesus ... it is just the next step toward eventual government by Jesus i the kingdom come, but it is conclusive proof that this is in the future [which i mention because some here manage to doubt that]
In the beginning ? ...
From St.Peter, where to start? :-
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Whoops, the world is full of seemingly countless personal interpretations that all differ but all insist they are based on scripture, they cannot all be God's truth , in fact at most one could be... that makes to odds of being wrong by choosing a church or pastor or other sinner to follow as almost a certainty of not finding the truth ... could reading the scripture for myself work better ?
Ah Sant Paul , the answer! :-
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Saving MANY lives from mankind's unlovingness ... not just FEW.
People have faith that governments will protect us with their powers ... it really ain't even close to the power of love ... the irony that our inability to stop sinning as a normal way of life is the broad way that brings wages in death and destruction ... the message of Christ, undelivered by our religion failing to reflect Jesus' words , is that not only the FEW who take the narrow strait [Matt 7:14] way of sainthood in this life are saved, but also the MANY are also later saved [Rev 7 :9-10] ... it is unsurprising that religion ignores that all sinners are subject to the wrath of God , only the few saints of this life are save3d first, at Jesus' return... Jesus underlines this by stating explicitly that he will not take any sinners :-
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Isaiah 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
What then the answer to iniquity [sin, unlovingness] ?
Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
We are seemingly destroying our own world by means of machines doing most of the toil God set mankind to do ... the CO2 increase that is warming our planet so rapidly comes from us, from cars and industry mainly , and we know that it is melting the polar ice [twice faster even than our best models predicted] ... when Arctic ice last melted the increase in volcanoes put dust in the air , blotting out most of the sunlight, the moon would have looked blood red by night...
We have been warned that the direction of sin [unlovingness] that dominates our world is far from wise, that even our science has led us astray from loving care of our planet which is required for our existence ... mankind ceased to care about surviving, mass suicide , in which the only wrath of God is to not intervene because mankind just cannot as a whole yet learn to love mankind or its home or God in this earth...
Gods answer , a new earth where men, resurrected from 'hell', live righteously before being judged by works :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
To keep things righteous, to rule and minister in this kingdom of the God of love under Jesus' commandment of love, God requires but a FEW from this earth as a royal priesthood , kings and priests, that is why only FEW find the narrow strait way in this life [Matt 7:14]
But that is where our religion is mistaken, there is no meaning to the FEW saints ruling and ministering unless they have many to minister to !
The MANY go by the broad way and are destroyed by death, BUT Jesus himself reveals that they are later saved , wholly contrary to modern religious tradition, but this is what JESUS said to believe, his words, do YOU believe him or sinners in smocks who set themselves, in his place, above his words? :-
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Last edited by stranger; 1st May 2009 at 03:58 PM.
Grace ... so what's all this about a new covenant then?
Hey I heard about grace being free from God, but what is it and who gets it ?
Grace turns out to be 'unmerited forgiveness.'... sounds too good to be true , can one sin as much as one fancies and then get unmerited forgiveness, a licence to carry on sinning and forever saying one is sorry ?
Ah, St Paul at last with the answers :-
Rom 6: 1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
...
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Ok, so when one stops sinning because of grace, one is free to love, to be righteous, holy ... so can one get grace ?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God:
hey a free gift from God, I just love free gifts, but never imagined one so valuable as this though ....seems like there must be some riders to this, are there?
Hey thanks St Paul , for writing down the answers, it makes it all clearer perhaps when men are so divided on what they say is the truth :-
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made withtheir fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
So fine, the ones whose fathers broke the old covenant get grace and stop sinning , having their old sins forgiven , they cease their iniquity and get saved because of this gift of forgiveness which they never even merited , iis that right, just these of the House of Israel and the house of Judah get saved by grace like God says here?
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Who is this Jacob then ?
Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
So the 'children of Irsael' are simply those whose fathers broke the old covenant who receive the grace under a new covenant only with them... what about everyone else ?
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Wow awesome... billions of people saved after Israel, but why are Israel first ? After all they did not merit being chosen to be first by God... so why did God choose them to be first , what role do they play that makes them need to be first ?
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Why does God need a whole nation of holy priests in His kingdom?
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Is that a joke, there is no nation of priests reigning as kings on this earth, never was ?
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world
So Jesus is king of these kings, but he doesn't rule here over everyone, only over the ones whom God gives grace to and puts His law into them, descendants of Jacob, called Israel by God , in the House of Israel and the House of Judah. where then is Jesus king of kings and when is the kingdom of God not simply in the hearts and minds of saints of Israel , when is it that the sinners who died sinners get a break and a chance to live loving lives if not in this earth ?
St Peter, yes?
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wow , people can get to this new earth and live righteously there , just as the saints do by grace now , and be saved , countless many, but how did they get free of sin then, without grace ?
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Men who were sinners to death are freed from their sin by death, not by grace ! OK, but then they are not judged by grace , but by their righteousness after death in the new earth? :-
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Hey . all the sinners get kicked out of hell? So much for that theory that has been put about that they are there for eternity and can suffer even though they are dead ... it never seemed very plausible anyway ... so how did it gain so much popularity , how come so many priests teach it , are sinners allowed to say these things by God and act as if they were saints teaching His truth, not their own version?
Saint John, yes?
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[Jesus]
John 16:13 Howbeitwhen he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
and St Paul again , quoting Jeremiah ,the prophet of God ?
Hebrews 8:11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord:for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
So the saints have no need to teach each other , but knowing all truth of God they could teach those still sinners , where does that leave the tens of thousands of sinners who call themselves priests and pastors and fathers , but do not have all truth of God, are not saints ? :-
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
So Satan is the lord of sinners even if they put on airs of righteousness and call themselves holy , and dress up in fancy expensive robes to put on a show of authority, but they know they do not have spirit baptism to know all truth in this life , as sinners they know they have nothing to teach?
Could they not read the scripture and reprove their beliefs to every word of it , and so at least teach only what God has had written down ?
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
that is the problem for sinners then, they decide what to believe before reading and understanding EVERY word of God , and then go out and teach others , and the whole mess of divided religion has snowballed until few people know where to turn , and even forget that they could read the scripture and use it for what it is intended for ... not for the saints, cos' they know all truth from God Himself by spirit baptism? :-
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Yes St Paul, you said that already, but it is well worth repeating cos' of what it says to sinners about where to look for the truth when religion is so deeply divided....
Last edited by stranger; 24th October 2007 at 11:08 AM.
Who are Satan and the Messiah then in the scripture?
People have difficulty conceiving of the Messiah, the Christ, as being spirit , people have difficulty in not seeing God as a man ... the problem is the same with Satan , but worse because he was created, unlike God or the Word [Logos] that manifested as Jesus the Messiah of Israel ...
So many Jews do not yet accept their messiah because he is not their king yet and christians see that he has returned to spirit and puzzle over how a man could be God ...
The solution can be expressed that God is spirit, not flesh and bones and yet can manifest in the flesh , just as angels have been mistaken for men :-
Quote:
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
The scriptural understanding of Satan comes from the understanding of Jesus' now standing at the right-hand of God, a position symbolised in the OT as that of the right-hand covering cherub [mistranslated as 'cherbim' , which is the Hebrew plural, in some scripts and even the double plural 'cherubims' in KJV and other bibles] at the throne of God
Each cherubim has at one stage [manifestation] the face of a man :-
Quote:
Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Thus one might expect a period of destructive power in the life of Logos , the so-called 'Wrath of the Lamb of God' ... and to return to spirit 'on eagle's wings'
What then has this to do with Satan? Note that he was in Eden as the serpent and that God goes to great lengths indeed to PROVE justly his blasphemy [2Thes 2:4] before condemning him to death for his sin:-
How can Satan die and be locked away, powerless over his death, for a thousand years? the answer in Ezek 28 :-
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Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no god, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
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13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
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16 ... and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
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18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, andI will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
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Ther are but TWO covering cherubs at the mercy seat, the throne of God [founded on love and thus mercy ...! ]
So why then is Satan in effect half of the manifestation of God in this world, but the created half not the uncreated half [John 1:1]
It is very different what the scripture says than is the popular image of Satan...
What is then achieved once God has destroyed Satan the men indeed what is achieved to the glory of God when Satan as a CREATURE accepts Jesus as Lord, as does all creation :-
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Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
What God achieved in Jesus is to show that love is the way back to Him , perfect love without iniquity :-
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2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
What God acheives in Satan is to show there is no alternative way and that He is the only god ..
These two then are complementary together making up the full glory of God as the one god which works in the ned to redeem all creation to Himself ... both are necessary , both are as important as each other , thus to god they are alike in importance though completely opposite in manifestation :-
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Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Men mostly cannot yet accept this, that God created evil for sake of good in the end to all creation through establishing that He is the ONLY god :-
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Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Last edited by stranger; 24th October 2007 at 11:05 AM.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Who then is this 'House of Israel' , is there any such nation , and why does he call them his 'lost sheep'?
Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Who are their shepherds if not the Rabbis of Israel ?
Does God then reject His people before accepting them, and is that what the Messiah came to do , show them that they are wrong ,then gather them under himself as the one king of the nation yet divided into two kingdoms, the House of Judah and the House of Israel ?
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, andtheir sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
This then is grace, unmerited forgiveness, but only for the House of Judah and the House of Israel despite that they were rejected , only for the children, the descendants, of those who broke the old covenant , only for those whose fathers broke the Law, the Torah..
So many of them are Jews , are the House of Israel Jews then , did they ever accept Judaism ? :-
Jeremiah 16:13 Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.
Does the scripture not pose a conundrum in this passage of the Torah ? :-
Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
How can a nation not be a people ?
How can a nation who are foolish [not believing in God] make the Jews jealous ??
Does the scripture then not answer its own conundrum [as usual] by an explanation further down the line in time? :-
Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Is there any doubt that Ephraim is the leading tribe in the Northern kingdom of the divided nation of Israel ?
Does this mean then that the House of Israel is a nation that simply ceased to be a people ?
How then are they without God? ... does the scripture answer this ?
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
Did the Jews then ever cease to be a people ? ... Or did Judaism keep them together in service to the God of their scripture?... were they not then always a people ?
Are the House of Israel truly Israelites then but not Jews?
Does the House of Israel then have a role in returning to union with the Jews as this foolish nation that ceased to be a people , who are now forgiven by the new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] and to whom alone the messiah was sent according to the scripture ?:-
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Is this not then why Peter underlines the importance of recognising that this lost nation will be the royal priesthood of God [alongside the Jews] ? :-
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Are not these words then simply repetitions of the words given by God in the Torah and the Prophets ? :-
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Hosea 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 ¶ Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
Is the Messiah not that one head , who will re-unite Israel into a nation of priests as was revealed by God to Moses.? ... Is it not clear that Israel is not yet a royal priesthood or a nation of priests ?
Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Does the scripture then explain why Jesus/Yeshua was sent to the lost House of Israel and yet most Jews remain disbelieving in him as the Messiah to this day ?
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence
Last edited by stranger; 24th October 2007 at 11:03 AM.
The three heavens and two earths ... what has love and money to do with this?
Genesis is indeed fascinating , try for instance exploring the possible alternative translations of the words which most bibles do not reflect ... Genesis does not in fact have to be the beginning of the world [and at only nearly 6 millenia ago the evidence from science is completely against that idea ]
The beginning of large civilisations in the 'fertile crescent' seems to correspond more closely with the scriptural timing , thus the word rendered 'create' actually is better translated as 'prepare' which is far more in line with the major re-ordering of the world that made corruption possible in mankind to achieve God's purpose in the earth [the humbling of Satan, of the vain desire in men to live by taking more than one gives ]
God's only 'vested interest' in the world is as-it-were to show all creation that He is right , that love is the ONLY way ... this then entails men not knowing this for sure and trying out other ways that seem easier but end in catastrophe , tribulation...
Men, like animals simply could not live inefficiently until we made civilisation ... only through such things a the formal money system, where men can rob one another without even interacting with them, could corruption even begin to seem a viable alternative to an efficient communal lifestyle
see this link to understand how corrupt our money system is and how it simply must fail sometime [soon!] :-
Equally , God says there is only one flood and that the end of this earth will be with a flood [of people, not water] ... there is no evidence of a historic flood , all floods of water have been local affairs ...
Even melting the ice caps ,as we are attempting hard to do today , does not produce enough water to cover all the land ... so look at the symbolic meanings which abound and are explained elsewhere in scripture , in fact consistently throughout scripture ... the earth after the flood then becomes the new earth of scripture, the ark is the translation to spirit of the 144,000 which is their way of reaching the new earth [whereas all sinners reach it by being freed from sin in death and the second resurrection] ...
The raven is Satan who brings nothing back , fails in his bid to be the god of men, the dove is Jesus returning with the remnant of Israel [sprig of olive tree] ... as scripture explains, it is written as 'parables' , in symbols, but the key to the symbols is written here and there, all over the place in scripture ... one has to read or search it all to find the meaning of every symbol... then one sees it all has but one message, expressed many ways, that love will show that it works and that no other way works ... clearly most men still don't accept that yet , scripture says they will, that is the very name [role] of Jesus [Yeshua] ,the Messiah of Israel first, who then saves the whole creation in his kingdom come [as we pray for in the Lord's prayer] :-
Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!
So there is a first heavens and earth which is given almost completely to Satan [Rev 13:3-8] < Jesus redeeming but 144,000 saints [Rev 7:3-8] whom God seals into becoming sinless [2 Timothy 2:19 ] ,being thus perfected in love by trial of faith in this life ... that is about one in a million people only ...
But Jesus says that the many will be saved, just that they will be saved later [Rev 7:9-10] , so the broad way through destruction in death is the main highway of salvation, not the grace offered only to the House of Israel and the House of Judah [Heb 8:8-12] ... one should not be surprised that almost all men have this wrong , you will soon see why , God requires men to worship Satan's created image of a god and a christ simply to get Satan to confess his blasphemy [2Thess 2:4] , thus God Himself sends the delusion into most men , creates the 'vessels of dishonour' of this world , in order that Satan be snared first , beginning his humbling to coming to see he is no god at all
Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou really say, God, am I, before him who is slaying thee; When, thou, art a man and not a God, in the hand of them who are piercing h thee?
The point then is that it glorifies God that Satan can find no way to be a god except to come to love in the end [for Satan, unlike Jesus [John 1:1], is a created being , see Revelation 5:13 ,above quoted]
Thus we move on to a new heavens, but note there s a new earth too ... a physical reality separate from the spiritual one of God, but God can live with [in] men because men are righteous in the new earth, whereas God ceased even to live with Israel in this reality because of their unrighteousness... God then stands for love in men :-
2 Peter 3:13 But, new heavens, and a new earth, according to his promise, are we expecting, wherein, righteousness, is to dwell.
1 John 4:8 He that doth not love, doth not understand God, because, God, is, love.
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1 John 4:16 And, we, have come to understand and to trust the love which, God, hath, in us. God, is, love; and, he that abideth in love, in God, abideth, and, God, in him abideth.
Thus note that the third heaven, mentioned by St Paul, has no third earth, it is the 'final rest' in the spirit , the paradise of God where the 'tree of life', immortality, exists for all ...
There are but two physical realities then , and men can only die twice before death is denied them in their final trial of other ways than love [the lake of 'fire' from God ... 'fire' simply represents the effect of God's truth in bringing men to accept love as the only way, it is simply the fact that no other way works and thus other ways bring suffering and pain ... God also tries those who would perfect their love with the same fire of His truth :-
Revelation 3:19 I, as many as I tenderly love, I convict and put under discipline: be zealous, therefore, and repent.
1 Peter 1:7 In order that the proving of your faith—much more precious than of gold that perisheth even though, by means of fire, it is proved—may be found unto praise and glory and honour in the revealing of Jesus Christ,—
2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ, who, fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not, God, knoweth, such a one as this, caught away, as far as the third heaven;
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4 How that he was caught away into paradise, and heard unspeakable things, which it is not allowable for a man to utter:
Last edited by stranger; 24th October 2007 at 11:00 AM.
Does God create 'ill-fortune' ? ... Is it that God creates ills as fortune ... how can it be by chance or 'fortune' if God creates it ... it is surely not by chance at all if God does it , but God creates it. Himself , as He freely admits .. thus scripture is indeed saying that God creates ills on men , which is no different than creating evil. there is no difference between ills and evil and badness ... they all amount to the same thing, an excessive destruction of something [where God alone defies what is needed, what is excessive] ... thus in the end men will see that God used evil only for good in the end , the glorying of all the creation in Him because He showed us all that love is the only way, and let us prove that the other ways we come up with do in fact fail, that sin is bad because it simply doesn't work , doesn't benefit everyone , but is simply exploiting of many for the benefit of the few
Now God destroys the whole earth and heavens eventually , once His purpose in it is over, killing billions of people.... now that is an ill of great magnitude, people will see it as evil, as bad, but God means it for good in the end ... but He really does create this evil on almost all men, very few are translated before the end of this world, few find the narrow strait way , and even they are chastened with evils, tried by bad unjust things happening to them to perfect their love, just as Jesus was tried and they follow him in that baptism of 'fire' ... precious trial of given faith ...
God used Satan as the 'evil spirit' and tempter of man, thus no evil or wicked thing proceeded directly from God.
Satan surely is the only one who tempts men to do evil, but god alone creates the means to do evil ... it is not Satan who hardens Pharoah's heart , it is not Satan who fails to give all truth to all men now so they can resist Satan... evil or badness is not an object, it is created by providing the means and the temptation to use it... It is God who provides both and thus creates evil or badness or ills , just as He says He does
You, Ben 12 and Squint are the ones that have to live with your assertions that God is evil. I personally believe that God is good, noble and pure and that we are to strive to be like Him with the help of His presence in our lives.
I quite agree with you, God is good , noble, and pure ... i actually resent your false assertion about what I believe, you have no place to say what I believe and get it wrong because you never even asked ....
God is the epitome of good-ness , even using evil or bad for good in the end, using it to perfect love in Jesus and the saints, using it to humble Satan and mankind... in order to save all men from what He requires us to go through for His purpose ... proving that there is no other way than love by giving Satan this earth to try the other ways than love , and to fail to find any one which works... so we have excessive destruction simply because God wants it proved by creation that not only is He right [proved by Jesus, the right-hand 'covering cherub at the throne of God ], but also that His way has no alternative that works 'long-term' [as proved by Satan, the left-hand 'covering cherub]
Thus there are only two cherubs covering the whole power of God's throne, working together to prove not only that god is right bit that there is no other god worthy of the name , no alternative to God's law of love ...His truth that eternity can only be reached by perfection of love :-
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
So ,in the end there is no evil , all creation including Satan in the end , accepts Jesus' commandment as lord , to love ...
Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!
Satan, unlike Logos that became Jesus, is thus a created being , and certainly, by Jesus' own words here, does come to accept Jesus as Lord and so receive mercy in the end ... but first God must humble Satan and mankind from belief in sin , in unloving ways , turn all creation to respecting only love and ceasing to sin.... the first step is to cast Satan into the earth as a man and for him to die , just as the other cherub died as a man :-
Ezekiel 10:14 And four faces had each one,—the first face, was the face of a cherub, and,the second face, was the face of a man and the third was the face of a lion. and the fourth, was the face of an eagle.
Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
This then is the hook in Satan's jaw set by God, his snare ... that the world will do din, treat him as lord, worship his image of a god and saviour [Rev 13:3-8] and yet God will show him he is not a god at all, though almost all the world worships his ways of evil... and does not turn to perfect love [bar just 144,000 saints out of over ten billion people and a few 'friends of God', elders of Israel ]
Thus half the power of God goes into creating evil in this world, just as half goes into the righteousness of the new earth and heavens , there is only one part in a million of good in this world and a similar amount perhaps of evil in the new earth to trial the saints of the new earth in perfection of their love
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
Thus all the evil of this world and the less of the new earth, is directed at good , and both together are solely for God's GOOD purpose of establishing by creation that He is right, that He is the ONLY true god , by love alone... by the truth that love is in fact, in reality, the only way, that sin fails ...
Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
There are two messages from God then , by His two cherubs, different messages, but together they say that God is God by right of goodness of love ... neither one alone is enough, God has to show not only that He is right, but also to show that He is the ONLY one who is right... this God requires BOTH darkness and light for His full light to shine to all in the end , when all creation accepts Him alone as God , having finally rejected Satan as lord and ceased to sin...
Last edited by stranger; 24th October 2007 at 10:32 AM.
The three heavens , and two earths, is enough for God's whole purpose
Like most things in scripture , the themes you will come to recognise running through it all after reading it a few dozen times and yearning to God for the understanding that most people do not ask him for [being satisfied by what sinners teach as their beliefs, never reproving them to "every word" of scripture... never seeing that being a sinner is not acceptable to God or Jesus - because God stands for love, Satan stands for sin]
Here are some perhaps key [?] passages on the three heavens , else it may seem a jungle to unravel ...
2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ, who, fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not, God, knoweth, such a one as this, caught away, as far as the third heaven;
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4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The third heaven then is the paradise of God, corresponding to the 'Garden eastward of Eden' since in both the scripture says is the tree of life, immortality of the spirit ...
Genesis 2:9 And Yahweh God, caused to spring up, out of the ground, every tree pleasant to the sight and good for food,—andthe tree of life, in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
[ Thus we may note that Adam was TAKEN to the paradise of God, it is not on earth , it is the spirit, not the material world ... bizarrely many men have looked for it on earth, but none found it by exploring ... St Paul however knew of it by being 'in the spirit' , by meditation [ceasing from one's own thought for a while and allowing God to get a word in edgewise ]
Psalms 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in His law doth he meditate day and night.
As to the first two earth's and accompanying heavens :-
Isaiah 65:17 ¶ For, behold me! Creating new heavens, and a new earth,—And the former shall not be mentioned, neither shall they come up on the heart,...
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your [children of Israel, descendants of Jacob] seed and your name [Israel] remain.
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[What then happens to the rest of mankind at the ned of the first earth and heavens... the few are translated to spirit and can manifest in the new earth, but the many can get there only by resurrection to the body ... thus Jesus made a point of showing his disciples that after resurrection he was a physical body, not spirit :-
Luke 24:39 See my hands, and my feet,—that it is, I, myself: Handle me, and see! because, a spirit, hath not, flesh and bones, as ye perceive, I, have.]
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heavenand the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[Note that the sea represents the raging sinner masses in conflict because of sin in our ways in the first earth , but the new earth is dominated by the kingdom of God come upon the earth at last , to material reality , instaed of residing only in the hearts and minds of the saints in this life and in God in heaven of course... the law on which the kingdom is based is love, and its only temporary opponent is sin..
Jesus is Lord of those who obey him and love, Satan is lord of sinners... God will take all support away from Satan, but only by means of love through his being the truth about love, that it is the only way of eternal life... hence the tree of life is in the spirit, but comes to all men eventually [spirit also referred to as eagle's wings , and the face of an eagle in scripture]
In requiring to establish the kingdom upon the earth, God requires only a few at first to act as perfect priests of the order of Melchisedec [Melchizedek in OT]... thus the role of 'priests' and 'rabbis' of religion in this world is simply to keep the masses from knowing the whole truth too soon and messing up the plan of God ...
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
The purpose referred to here is getting Satan to confess to himself the desire to be the god of men [2Thess 2:4] ... a desire all-but fulfilled , by God's allowing men to be deluded for a while, in this earth -Rev 13:3-8 - only the few saints escape this fate , the 144,000 sealed [Rev 7:3-8] into ceasing to sin by spirit baptism by God [to know all truth -John 16:13- and thus be able to defeat Satan's wiles, and cease to sin, become perfect in love as Jesus and God ...
2 Timothy 2:19 ¶ Howbeit, the firm foundation of God, standeth, having thisseal—The Lord hath acknowledged them who are his, and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord stand aloof from unrighteousness.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye thereforeperfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
So the many men who go through destruction at the end of this earth because they died sinners, not saints, at God's requirement, are resurrected at the second resurrection [of the unjust, the unbaptised of spirit, all sinners of this earth of whatever religion, including 'christianity' ] , all sinners are resurrected to THE BODY ... no sinner can be translated to spirit, one must become without sin first during physical life... so the second earth is required then and the second heaven, and the lake of 'fire' , the truth of God, rains down from God upon all who still are sinners in the new earth , who reject the baptism of the spirit, do not believe God even when He tells them all His truth as He did the saints of this earth... [John 16:13]
The lake of fire then is simply God allowing all those who will not believe Him to find out for themselves if their evil ways work or not ... but God has removed by then all who do believe Him, only the most evil are left and they cannot benefit from evil any longer because God has removed all the simple folks on whom they preyed in this world... thus the meek inherit the kingdom before the evil , many fools before those who think they know and yet follow evil ways ... and God simply allows the truth to have its way and show the evil their mistake the hard way, by trying to make it work when it no longer does... no-one left to prey upon who does not prey back just the same... everyone is seen to lose by evil, not to gain at cost to others as in this world... Satan's support dwindles to nothing then as men plea for mercy and accept Jesus as their lord instead, God mercy endures to the very end, when Satan finally d=admits he is no god because he has no followers and evil does not serve him either... the prodigal son of God is welcomed home to the third heaven at the very end of time itself , so there is no third earth, no need for one , two earths is all God needs before all creation is redeemed to spirit , all have accepted love as the only way, through Jesus Christ, the Messiah who first unites Israel to form the perfect priesthood who afterward minister to billios, but not in this earth...but far from all are then saved at the same time... religion in this world has it wrong, and perhaps you now see why God made it that way ?
May His peace be in your heart, through faith in the love which God stands for, throughout the tribulation almost upon us...
Last edited by stranger; 24th October 2007 at 10:22 AM.
Seal of God & healing of the nations in the new earth after the second resurrection ?
Rev 20:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for, the first heaven and the first earth, have passed away, and, the sea, is no more.
2 And, the holy city, new Jerusalem, saw I coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
...
Rev 21:1 ¶ And he pointed out to me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, issuing forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the midst of the broadway thereof. And, on this side of the river and on that, was a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, every several month, yielding its fruit; and, the leaves of the tree, were for the healing of the nations
The scripture above seems to conclusively say that the many [who go by the broad way] are healed after resurrection to the new earth ...
It contradicts mainline christianity rather completely ...
But Jesus said that the many are saved after the few [Rev 7:9-10] and we know that only the few find the narrow strit way, sealed as saints from further sin in life in THIS world...
so there is indeed more than hope in Jesus Christ for the many who die sinners and/or in disbelief
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Jesus again lists the few , who they are, in Rev 7:3-8 and that these are sealed as saints, they are not any of them sinners any longer by the time of Jesus' return , as the many are who are saved after death ... in the new earth... after the second resurrection.... accoprding to the scripture, but not according to mainline christianity !!!
Does one believe confessed sinners who run modern christianity their way, or the scripture of Jesus and the saints , cos' they are very different ?
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Christians are to become saints then ,after spirit baptism to know all truth of God , not to continue as sinners :-
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Last edited by stranger; 24th October 2007 at 10:19 AM.
As Jesus says, Satan is given power by God to run this world his way... a sort of try out as a god ... the outcome is that he fails to run it very well at all and it fails men completely, his ways of an 'easy' but unloving life cause only death of almost all men in the end, and then God shows him that he is not even master of his own death as a man [unlike Jesus who voluntarily took death to show men that there was a sure way through death and to God]
So Satan will rule for now by permission of God [Rev 13:3-8] and he indeed persuades almost everyone to sin because, as one might point out, one has to be a saint in every aspect of life to avoid the mark of the beast in one's mind and one's actions... the point would be though that it is actually much harder to follow Satan than to follow Jesus , despite that Satan says not and so many believe him, and Satan is the norm for a god in this world , the way almost all people live...
So if one finally had enough of the false propaganda about how great and how easy this life is that is about to get impossinbly hard, then it is surely time to find a saint and see if one is ready to receive baptisnm of the spirit by laying on of hands ... then one could in fact live without sin, because oe sees through the difficulties that Satan places in the path of saints, one sees that love is not just a better way of life that gives lasting deep happiness, but that there actually is no way to live with sin very long ...
Like our corripted money system, all that sin has done is bring all the bad to land on the last generation people have lived the 'easy' life on borrowed suffering of this generation, all the crap hits the fan now and no-one can stop it.. all the propaganda now falls apart because people begin to see it as simply untrue...
The sin is not in the idea of money, money could be used for fair trade , the evil is in the bankers who just print promises on paper which they could never keep... and when people find out, all their money will be seen to be just worthless paper ,with false promises on it, in which we trusted foolishly .. but it was never true , from the very first time that a banker made a promise to pay money that he simply never had ... and we carry on blindly ignoring that our money is worthless and one day will be seen to be worthless ... better then to either insist that we change the system [unlikely in the extreme, since God has said it must fail in order to show Satan he is no god] or we take ourself away from using money and use some barter item in our scrip, not money as such, but real money, having real value to whoever we trade with... better still lead the life of a 'peasant' and do all trade by barter until local currencies are re-established which trade without evil bankers taking a share for nothing off every transaction... in a place like the Azores where people do not steal from each other and front doors are left open all the time, one has no need to put one's local curremcy in any bank , they just didn't get around to that much independence yet, but there are local currencies starting up in many towns and small areas, and people love them because they represent real value in the money ,not ever-decreasing value of the legal tender of all large countries...
We know from scripture that very few people will reject sin before the great disaster makes it clear that it wasn't such a good idea, but that is no reason not to start now to find the way to live without sin ... following the herd may have been a good idea for many situations, but in this one it is very clearly simply a way to a pretty nasty death... respect for God rather demands that one does all one can to stop sinning and that means being rejected by most people .
Sin in the mind... Even if most men look at a pretty girl and screw her in their minds, it does not mean that one cannot see her as just another human being instead, and one who will die horribly with the rest of the world is she doesn't stop deliberately sending out accentuated sexual temptations to men to get a mate or sexual partner by seduction, not becoming a partner in life to a man , a help-mate ... most women know full well what they are doing in painting their faces to be more 'attractive' to men, and wearing clothes that accentuate their shape which is the trigger to sexual arousal in many men... there is sin in both man and woman in seeking sex outside a partnership in life ... and it will continue to the end, and only then be seen to have not yielded anything of value but the proof that sin is of no lasting value to anyone ,and so hurts everyone , takes away the potential happiness in all from loving ways instead of sin..
God is not right then because He says so, but because He just happens to be right ... trying other ways is OK cos' in the end it shows that there is no other way than love, but nevertheless it is true, these other ways do cost dearly and there is a real price to pay... so the sooner one learns to love all the time, the better ... and I just realised yesterday that my approach to doing that is NOT the way given in scripture , so how do i expect it to have any chance to work? doh!
Since on is sure to die most horribly if one continues in sin, then there is really nothing to lose by finding and trying out the way of love ... one simply is not obliged to follow the masses over the cliff like lemmings , one can stop and say, hey there is a cliff there, I see it now... time to stop running madly that way , time to go against the flow ,and put up with the yells from everyone to come along and join the crowd...
One cannot succeed in love alone because one's own mind is in denial of doing love just to live in the world, but a saint can 'lay on hands' when he sees one is ready to TURN AROUND and seek love ['water baptism'] and then one can receive spirit baptism to know all truth from God [John 16:13] ... then there is only trial to perfect love in the remaining years of one's life [ the precious 'baptism of fire' , trial of faith in love against what Satan and the world teach]
The problem then is not the world, but how does one find a saint when this world is chock-a-bloc full of fakes ...religion is just a sham front for Satan ... and just some two thousand saints for the whole world because God requires only 144,000 saints from this world... if one found a saint than it would not be by chance, but because God guided one... they really are one in a million , and unlike the fakes , may well be silent at this time , their only duty is to pass on access to the spirit in laying on of hands to the next few saints, so that the congregation of God is alive throughout all the time between Jesus' comings ...
Something then which I have said before, but never acted upon,,, one must become a saint before one can worship God in spirit and love as He does, obey Jesus as Lord in his command to love, else one truly does not follow him as lord at all ... what use anything else that one calls love?
1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
So it is in fact a good start to acknowledge how we are up to our necks in sin , as they say, the only way is up from where we are ... but it is only the starting point when one acknowledges it and decides to turn, it is only the first baptsim of the three required, and all three must be completed in life before death... not so much time then
I dunno why my mind is so very painfully slow to see these things, but somehow it gets there ... it seems that God really does blind men and one cannot undo it with words or scriptures even ... but the point is that if one is moved to stop sinning then it was God who moved one... so it now looks like a blind man staggering toward a light by 'instinct' , just because I believe in love and in the few saints and Jesus... whatever, I can't be any worse than my life is now , compromised by trying to live the world's way by Satan's rules , and there just ain't anything to lose if I fail either... there is always the next world... and I just might save myself some sadness on the way, and there is even the remotest possibility of becoming a saint and being able to teach other people as well as Jesus did in the new earth...
It seems a lot better than all the ideas that i came up with so far, and rather true to my visions of my youth that I would end up some kind of hermit living in a cave or tramping the roads rejected by all but the most loving of men... I dunno, cos' I am still as blind as a bat from sin, but I am grateful for the 'movement' of the spirit in me at last... as you say, we shall see, “que sera, sera” , my own father's favourite saying ... but he never knew half the things I know from scripture , and his life was misery at the end because he never came to face himself, let alone God ...
Enuf said then perhaps, I am quite excited to have admitted all this to myself, and now I know why my body keeps telling me I am going the wrong way and it is crap... just a wrong turn , another of many in my life... perhaps I will listen to Jesus this time then
Hry my friend, thanks for listening to my ramblings, it helps a lot ,strangely ,to write them down , and even more to get independent review... so PM me if you have a point
I wish this peace in faith in love for you, because I would not have got even this far , to seeking water baptism, without it ... I think most people do not realise that it is not dunking in water that matters, it is the turning one's back on the ways of sin of the world that matters in 'water baptism' ...
I have known that so long, yet ignored it so long... must be very dumb indeed ,or blinded by God perhaps? One thing of growing awareness in me, the perfection of God's timing in His plan... nothing seems left to chance , it doesn't fit with men's deep belief that chance exists [something Einstein spent his life to his deathbed trying to establish, that there is no chance, only ignorance and blindness and denial in men, he believed it very deeply in face of massive 'evidence' from this world ,and I do too ]
The hidden evil of our money system , an entertaining animation video :-
The BIG plan of God in scripture , for 'hitch-hikers' ....
To understand 'fire' one might start with baptism of fire as promised to all who believe Jesus :-
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Unlike these saints ,modern churches do not like to speak of baptism of fire because it is the severe trial of the faith of saints :-
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
The symbolism comes from the OT word of God to his prophets:-
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
It is no accident that churches who scare their people with tales of endless fire do not tell the that they will not see Jesus until they are baptised with the same 'fire' ... it is just the trial of saints , and of course most cannot be saints in this life , only few find the strait narrow way, countless amny are afterward saved though [Rev 7:9-10] despite that we know the many go the broad way through destruction [of this world, death and destruction of the body, but the spirit can be saved later] :-
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
there we have it then, the saints of this world, and countless many others survive 'fire' , the trial of their faith ...
What then of those who refuse the truth by baptism of the spirit which comes eventually to all [Joel 2:28] so all come to know all truth of God and understand the future [John 16:13] ?
They die a second death as wages of continued sin after being freed from sin by their first death and resurrected to the kingdom of God in the new earth ... but death is just a 'sleep' as Jesus pointed out, hell cannot hold the dead after the second death any more than it could after the first death :-
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
We know that those who die a second death are resurrected because death is denied them , one cannot deny death to those still dead except by resurrecting them to life :-
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of Godin their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Those who rejected in their minds the truth by baptism of the spirit shall seek death and be denied it ... they cannot seek death or be tormentsed unless they are resurrected to life in the 'lake of fire'
We know too that they are flesh after resurrection , just as Jesus took trouble to show us is the result of resurrection :-
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The second death is a mortal death then and the suffering of trial in the 'lake of fire' is of resurrected physical bodies denied a further death , no third death ...
So what has God achieved by the time of this third [last] part of the trial [baptism of fire] of all mankind , now all have been baptised of the spirit?
God has achieved much ! He has set up a perfect priesthood of saints ruling as kings and ministering as perfectly as Jesus who have ministered in the redemption of countless many by works in the righteous new earth kingdom of God [Rev 7:9-10, Rev 20:13]] :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
So the 'lake of fire' is just the final trial of mankind, of the most evil , those who reject the truth of god in baptism of the spirit and still follow Satan...
God's only action is to have separated them both from those whom they preyed upon so easily in this world and from those countless many who went the broad way and who are saints redeemed at judgment day for works in the kingdom of God ...
They are denied death and have to live preying on those who prey back just as well as they, to follow Satan's way of deceit when everyone there sees through it because God has revealed the truth ... it is a terrible trial because it is focused evil , but it is poetic justice that the evil suffer their own evil at last ... it is unsurprising that they repent when it is made personal and up front that they don't benefit from evil, but just suffer continually by it ... Satan loses his followers rather quickly because God has set up the means to convince even those who will not take His word for it in spirit baptism ...
there we have it then the perfect solution to all evil in just three phases of God's plan, two earths for physical existence, and three heavens because the third heaven needs no earth, no physical life, just immortal spirit.
the lake of fire is thus just the final trial by God of mortal man, where satan is stripped of his followers by his own rules being rejected... God proves as gently, lovingly as possible that His 'prodigal son' is no god having had to have him mortally slain twice in the long process of humbling him to accept and confess Jesus as lord :-
Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Thus the scripture does not say in vain that God's mercy endures for all time , to the whole age of all the ages, the three phases of god's declared plan given from the beginning ,about the end ...
1 Chronicles 16:34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.
Do not believe the religionists who claim God's mercy ends in this world , Jesus himself proves that the many are saved , not just the few who go the narrow way in this life.
Remember that NONE escapes trial, baptism of fire , but that all are NOT tried at the same time in the scriptural plan of God ... understand what 'fire' is from scripture , just the precious trial that ensures faith in love is REAL, not feigned or just in words ... sin is ANY unlovingness and Jesus ciommands love from all eventually :-
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The lake of fire then is just the final baptism of fire for those hardest to convince that God is right, that perfect love , ceasing all sinning is the only way to be accepted into immortal spirit by God.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
[Rich men's] religion thus has it wrong by pretending sin all one's life is OK , Jesus says explicitly that he will take no sinners at his return , [but many are saved in the next life - Rev 7:9-10]
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
James 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
the New Covenant of grace, according to Paul.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:
Paul says the new covenant is with the two nations into which Israel was long ago divided ... no mention of anyone else under grace!
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Paul says the new covenant of grace is for the Hebrews whose 'fathers' broke the old covenant , proving that grace is for descendants of the two nations descended from Jacob whose ancestors broke the old covenant, NOT with some 'spiritual Israel' composed of gentiles unconnected with Israel.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
God takes this remnant descended from Jacob [Isarel] to be His people and says He will be their God ... why do almost all modern Christians not believe Him?
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
God says that those under grace will NOT TEACH one another because He will put His laws in their minds and hearts Himself!
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Originally Posted by Super Kal
Romans 9:27 speaks of a "remnant" of Israel, and with theology based within Eschatology, this remnant will still have to perform blood sacrifices to God, in which God will still be pleased...
now someone PLEASE explain to me how this is at all possible, since the Death of Christ on the cross was enough for everyone, and it is through grace and faith, not works righteousness, that we are saved...
It is identical to the version given long before Jesus came by Jeremiah 31:31-34 , underlining that grace is for the remnant children of Israel named by Jesus , tribe by tribe, descended from the named sons of Jacob [Rev 7:3-8]
These FEW [literally just tens of thousands - Jude 1:14] are thus the few that find the straight narrow way in this life prior to Jesus return to take those who are saints by then [or by death, if sooner] [Matt 7:14]
What then of the MANY who go by the broad way through destruction in death?
We know that countless many are saved according to Jesus [Rev 7:9-10] , so the MANY are certainly not all lost, as much modern divided Christianity claims!
we know from Jesus that the many who go by the broad way are all resurrected from hell and judged by works :-
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
and we know when that is, AFTER the Millennium :-
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
but the countless MANY saved after [Rev 7:9-10] who went through destruction in death and resurrection from hell clearly are saved by beiing freed from sin by death - as sin's sole wages is death :-
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Freed from past sin then, countless many who go by the broad way in this life are saved by works after the Millennium [in the righteous new earth kingdom of God]:-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness...
The FEW are translated first ,at Jesus' return, because God requires them to be the kings and priests in His kingdom, to serve the countless many [over 12 billion gentiles] later , as promised long ago to Moses :-
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Israel were never a holy nation and kingdom of priests under the old covenant , but as Paul and God say in the hew covenant, their children [remnant of their descendants] are forgiven all sins under the old covenant.
Thus Jesus is the prophesied king [Messiah, Christ] who will re-unite the two Houses of divided Israel into a holy nation of priests in God's kingdom, by means of which countless many gentiles will be redeemed by the ministry and rule of the descendants of Jacob [Israel]
God says that He has completely forgiven Israel the sins of their forefathers under the old covenant , directly contradicting most modern Christianity's teachings.
I don't think one can see it too well as a sinner ,that is where the churches go wrong employing sinners as if they could be priests of God before becoming saints ... unless in discussion the other person wants to hear what's behind the crude words one can offer, else they don't register the intended meaning... I tried and failed to get through , just as God told me that I would fail ... it helps a lot in understanding to fail and prove God is right , for me anyway, because if I could write it down and people understand it then God's plan wouldn't work ... my faith in people's ability to understand words was misplaced , understanding ain't in the words, it's in the heart of love...
which is all many keep telling me of course
If God didn't show me how empty is what most people call love, then perhaps I could get on with it and just fall over for God to pick me up at the end , like most folks I guess... but He did show me it is wrong, and why it is wrong ... and nothing hurts quite as badly as having one's attempts at love rejected by God ... I understand how Cain felt, but do not think his solution [killing 'Jesus' in his brother] is the right one ...
If I were a saint then I could hit the road and say all the words and get stoned to death or sommit, and it would be all over , resurrected at Jesus return and on back to God, just a few duties afterward as a priest in the kingdom... I could live with that ...
As a sinner who is given to know that my way of life is crap, there is no place to rest, no way forward except death if God will not baptise one to know all truth... but He is sly enough to know that we do not know if He will baptise us in this life or not... it's a pretty [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] job being a sinner for God... Jesus will surely spew one out , God will not listen yet, the world wants you to swallow its 'easy' way of living death....
Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
If I were a son of God then I could go and get slain for telling the truth, but there can be no faking it [except if one can fool onese;f for a while ... one cannot fool God ] and who wants to get slain for telling half-truths, and then get rejected by God too?
And I ain't really complaining either , I have faith in Him, in love itself , and it brings me complete peace about myself and the world tearing itself apart, it's just that I am bemused in my blindness , can only get on with the things He moves me to do , but without understanding, without even knowing if it is love or not because I do not see it all, only in part..
Most of all I do not even want to be here, because God ain't here quite deliberately ... there ain't no satisfaction here [Rolling Stones' line !] cos' every 'pleasure' is just transient and causes addiction to the world, even the 'do-gooding' of this world is just a sidestep from facing the truth about one's own sin...
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
And it comes down to just one thing , that God simply will not baptise all men now ... it just wouldn't work if He did...
The rest is all carried by the bizarre ability of us to live in denial , to shut out our hearts of love , and not content with that to live in denial that what we call 'love' is any good at all to anyone instead of baptism of the spirit , love from God of giving His truth...
And people say,a s you do, that it's a progressive thing, and I agree ... but simply look at how far almost all people got in a whole lifetime ...
The fact is that if one is not a saint by the time Jesus returns [or one's own death if it is sooner] then one is to be recycled through death and the second resurrection, not by grace ...
Now for a billion and more people , they can live in denial of this statement by Jesus :-
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Amazingly really, they believe sinners who dress up in robes and silly hats and disregard Jesus, yet they say they believe Jesus and the scripture ... it just ain't for me, I can't live with these deceptions ...
I think it seems easier if one believes what one wants to believe, but I just can't do it ...it is crap and one trul;t knows it is crap, one can only live with it as a living death by denial...
Why then does God give me a little truth, enough for most people to reject me, but not enough to make me a saint?... I don't fit here with almost everyone around me telling me how good is their ways when they know inside it is not good at all... I just don't know what to say to them, and they do not understand when I try ...
I used to think I must be 'lukewarm', but if I found the truth I would not be lukewarm at all, I am simply stalled by not having all truth because I cannot bear all truth, I cannot bear to hear what i need to hear and to be, because of my closing my own heart off in denial through sin...
It boils down to the same thing, one cannot get out of the addiction to sin by oneself , it comes only by spirit baptism ... even death is only an answer because one is baptised of the spirit after death... so even suicide is no solution since it just forecloses on the remote possibility of spirit baptism in this life ...
The self does not yield easily to accepting that we are but pawns ... the self of Satan is the strongest of all selves in this ... how easily the idea of 'freedom of the self', 'free-will' , spread like a plague across Europe from Greece and from Britain to the Americas and Australia and even now it continues into the recesses of the world and today into the East, even into China...
Satan's grip on us through the self tightens , and people are willing to serve him in the name of progress that will shorten their miserable lives... and in many ways I 'envy' them because I can neither escape their fate nor bear the way they live in denial and ignorance of God, of love...
But it is only my pain that causes this mock envy , I do not want at all to be like them, and they only save up all their pain to have it all at once, enough to kill anyone when god shows His face.... so I wonder how will I cope when God shows His face, He nearly killed me last time, but that is it, i survived because He wanted it, and more than that I survived looking on God... few have done that , albeit that i turned away as fast as possible and cannot even recall most of what I saw...it is just too terrible, not what God is, but what we are become in the world... and it reflects how stupid we are to imagine we can love by doing Satan's little games of pretending to be good 'in part' ... when he has us completely , because of sin he is our lord, we just are in denial of it, hate to admit it ...
Satan does not need that many thoroughly evil men to run the world, any more than God needs but a few saints to redeem the whole creation ...all those in between serve Satan very well, whilst thinking they are serving God or even Jesus ... and the irony is that they do serve God, just not in the way they think that they do, as does Satan...
So how could I hope to know ? Well there is always hope , even of a one-in-a-million shot , because it is not by chance ... and hope is actually sure because one KNOWS love within one's heart even in denial of it... God will not be silenced completely [else we should be dead]
Indeed. How can religion follow Jesus when it adds multiple commandments that He never gave to his disciples?
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
In Rev 13:3-4 Jesus describes the extent of this falling away ['apostasy'] of religion, indeed of the whole world following Satan as this false saviour of the then [now?] much-troubled world, the 'antichristos', one in place of Christ.
Thus religion cannot follow Jesus , it is incapable of doing so ... Jesus describes those he takes at his return,at the death of the 'antichrist' in Rev 7:3-8 , there are but 144,000 [confirmed as literal by Enoch - see Jude 1:14 , there are only tens of thousands of saints to bridge the gap between Jesus' two comings ... that amounts to about a coupe of thousand who can follow Jesus alive at any one time [and they scattered worldwide by the task Jesus set them of finding the lost House of Israel , who ceased to be a people and were scattered long before the Jews [House of Judah]... this shows that any group larger than say 2000 and not composed wholly of saints knowing all truth of God [John 16:13] simply cannot be following Jesus and will worship the antichrist , according to Jesus' witness in scripture... that rules out almost all modern religion even before one starts going through doctrine in detail [which eliminates the rest of religion of sinners led by sinners rather quickly too - ]
So you are right, religion cannot follow Jesus, and basically he said so ... because they cannot stop sinning [and most know it] ... religion has an essential role following the antichrist, but it is only the saints which can follow Jesus , those who stop sinning [2 Timothy 2:19] , who stop disobeying Jesus' command to love [else he would not be their Lord ... whatever sinners say , sin is not love and it is disobedience to Jesus , so even if a sinner cries out 'Jesus is my Lord' ,his sin shows that Jesus is not his Lord]
Pray tell us where Jesus specifically commanded his disciples to observe the Sabbath.
Jesus summarised the commandments of God to the saints as :-
Matt 22:37 ...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Sinners have no idea how to do the first [because God must be worshiped in spirit and they do not have spirit baptism] and fare not too well at the second ... since Jesus knew this ,he only instructed those who would be saints , no point in instructing hose who would remain sinners until death since he knew they could never keep in this life his commands to the FEW saints of this world. [significantly he did say countess many would keep them in the next life though, despite dying sinners in this life - Rev 7:9-10 , the 'broad' way to Jesus for the many , not just the few of Matt 7:14!]
Thus we find that all those that Jesus commanded in this life are of the tribes of Israel [Rev 7:3-8] ,sealed by the holy spirit to know all truth [John 16:13] to be ABLE to defeat all Satan's wiles and so stop sinning .
as you likely know, all the other commandments of the old covenant are repeated in the NT , so the question reduces to - Why should those whose 'fathers' broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] , the only ones given grace in the new covenant [Heb 8:8-13, Jer 31:31-34] keep the sabbath , when they have unconditonal forgiveness anyway ?
The answer is that God set up a sign between Israel and Himself, a perpetual covenant in keeping His sabbaths [because holy sabbaths are actually memorial days celebrating the past and future events of God's plan... few in modern religion understand that, but the saints do, and Satan thinks it important enough that all holy days have been substituted out of Christianity,not one Hebrew holy day of scripture is celebrated in most of Christainity .. the plan is lost to christian sinners , they keep pagan days labeled 'christian' instead of the holy days set by God to show His plan for the future of mankind.
The OT records that holy days are memorials for ever , they are not alterable , they did not disappear just because Israel broke its old covenant [partly to keep them]
In particular the weekly sabbath is a sign between Israel and God for ever that shows they are His people and He is their God :-
Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
...
Ezekiel 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
Thus Jesus [as a Jew] and his disciples [mostly Jews at first] kept sabbath to please God and show that they are the people of God and He their God even though they were no longer under sentence of being stoned to death for not keeping sabbath [as in the old covenant], they had farmore to lose than life by not keeping sabbath.
Isaiah makes the point for keeping sabbaths into even our future
Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah here continues describing events in the times after the House of Israel and the House of Judah are re-united under the Messiah [the Christ] ... things in our future , so clearly keeping sabbaths [in fact all memorial sabbaths, not just weekly sabbath] is important now and into the new earth, just as one would expect of reminders to God's plan... there would be no sense in them being lost ... there are other reasons why they are lost to most of christianity.
If you choose to revert to the Old Testament commandments as your proof, please tell us why you utterly fail to keep the Sabbath according to the detailed commandment there.
The old covenant demanded the death penalty for sabbath-breaking under the old covenant , the penalty under the new covenant is to be rejected by Jesus at his return [far worse than death for a saint] :-
Jesus talking of his return:
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
again , the very foundation of salvation in the name of Christ is to give up all sin [through baptism of the spirit ... it is a gift from God, not of our own selves choosing, but God's choice of the few [Matt 7:14]from the beginning, but the many are saved too just later , once the kingdom is set up and ready for the few to rule and minister to uncountable billions [ Rev 7:9-10]
The few are 'chosen' only because God required to show His power of prophecy , there had to be a name , He chose Israel , named them with His name as His people , they rebelled , so He takes them as His people in the new covenant, those descended from the ones who broke His old covenant , because of Him, not them :-
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
This little word 'their' gives the lie to almost all christian religion , it proves that the new covenant of grace is only with those whose ancestors broke the old covenant , only with [genetic] Israel, as indeed Jesus confirms in Rev 7:3-8 , naming the saints of this earth by tribe of Israel.
It is a very significant error, deceiving over a billion people in religion about what Jesus came to do and what the gospel is about...
christians do not want to do away with their rest day, what they want todo is pretend that it is holy , but God set His holy day for rest on sabbath , not even a Roman-type day at all [but starting at evening in Jerusalem, not local midnight like Roman days most keep today]
The argument really is for christians between keeping God's word or keeping some other pagan day and not working the six days God set for work... thus christians already do not seek to please God by keeping sabbaths, the only way they could show they love God in obedience to Jesus command if they were saints ... it is clear then that gdo has a different salvation for the many christians who goby the broad way of sinners , it is still a salvation [Rev 7:9-10] but not by the new covenant, but by being freed from sin by death :
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
It matters not a lot that christian sinners don' t keep sabbath since they are bound to die anyway , what will matter to them is when Jesus returns and they are not taken first because they are still sinners , then they will gnash their teeth at God, but because they have been deceived by listening to sinners, not scripture ... they will still be saved alongside many other sinners , more than the few who take the narrow strait way are saved
The few are first only because the kings and priests of the kingdom need to be there at the start , ready to rule and minister to billions of resurrected sinners freed from sin by death who live righteously under Jesus in the new earth before being judged by their works there... everyone is delivered up from hell free from sin with the opportunity to be saved by works in the righteous new earth at judgment day :
Revelation 20:13 ... hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
sabbaths are memorials right to the end of God's plan , the weekly sabbath symbolising final rest in the third heaven [paradise, immortality of the tree of life, the spirit] ... there can be no ceasing of God's memorials until it is all over, they would cease to be memorials if they disappeared before fulfillment... God put them there as signs, only sinners do not need them until the next life [when scripture shows that all will keep sabbaths]
It is totally mistaken to think that God's word can be ignored in the OT, God's word is ONE truth, OT and NT , else it would not be of God ... if one does not believe that then there is nothing to be said about the future , about salvation, redemption to spirit ... __________________
When did Jesus' die and when did he rise, according to the witnesses at the time? :-
Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
This shows that the only consistent time for Jesus' death corresponds with what most now call Wednesday afternoon ... but Passover is a Hebrew day starting at around sunset Jerusalem , it does not correspond to any day we keep today, there simply cannot be any such thing as 'holy Wednesday', 'holy Thursday', 'Good Friday , Easter Sunday' [because that would start and end at local time midnight, not even absolute time , and those days are (bizarrely) somewhere on the earth for 48 hours eah, unlike the Hebrew days set by God from the beginning]
Also Jesus was the one who kept the true Passover ,because it pleases God to keep His sabbaths and as Jesus said, it behoves a man to keep the Law of God [Jesus is a Jew and lived under the old covenant until his death ...which brought in the new covenant as a better option by far for Israel's two Houses, two divided nations [Heb 8:8-13] - note that the new covenant is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant, not with some 'spiritual Israel' as some sinners teach today, contradicting both Paul and Jeremiah [31:31-34] ,and thus God, about the new covenant.
It is the Jews then which were keeping the wrong day , one can prove this because the Hebrew day after the evening Passover meal is an annual holy sabbath called the Day of the Feast of unleavened bread ... we know that the women rested this sabbath , bought herbs and spices and prepared them the next day, then rested the weekly sabbath
Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Thus there was a non-sabbath day between the two sabbaths, which day ironically was kept falsely as a sabbath by the Jewish hierarchy [but not by the followers of Jesus]
the women thus bought herbs and spices on an 'official sabbath' of the Jewish hierarchy
It also shows that Jesus rose close to sunset toward the end of the weekly sabbath, even though he was not discovered missing from the tomb until the morning after [close to dawn]
Thus Jesus indeed rose on the Lord's day , but it was Hebrew sabbath , and could not possibly be pagan Sunday...
all-in-all, integrating the scriptures to take in the sign of Jonah and the witness of those who buried him rather demolishes the common religious traditions fairly easily... one has to ask why they exist and deceive so many when the scripture is there for everyone to read... Jesus and the saints and prophets explain that reason too... few search out the answers to that though either...
Last edited by stranger; 11th May 2009 at 03:22 AM.
The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Bible [or 'some sinners have learned how to read'] 
The 'antichristos' as necessary world power over religion and state united ... 
... could reading the scripture for myself work better ? 
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