Scripturally the Jewish saints must 'wake up' soon...
Why do most Jews not accept their new covenant in their prophets -Jer 31:31-34? [c.f. St Paul, the Jewish saint , Heb 8: 8-12]
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is it not clear who are Israel in this passage ? In contradistinction to what many 'christian' sinners claim , that they are more holy as sinners somehow, that they are 'Israel' despite being sinners , but Israel was rejected even from being Israel because of sin ? All this despite what the new covenant above says , that the children of the two Houses of anciently divided Israel are now accepted, having been rejected, that the new covenant is with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9]
It seems that God does not accept sinners who remain sinners to death [or till Jesus' return if that be sooner] , where does that leave 'christain' sinners who believe they can sin as long as they like ? St Paul makes no exceptions here for sinners who call Jesus their lord or say they believe him whilst not doing what he commands, love, but continue in sin instead :-
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Why do the Jews then not see through the false 'christ' of 'christian sinner' {oxymoron] paganism and recognise that Yeshua is very different than the modern image of Christ ... what is it that makes them reject the scriptural Yeshua simply because the modern image of Jesus is obviously a fake image for soothsaying to sinners ?
[The Jewish saints point out the modern error in scripture:- 2 Timothy 2:19,Matthew 7:23,Matthew 5:48 ,Romans 6:1-2, etc, etc]
The Torah and the Prophets discuss at length the re-union of the Jews with the idolatous [non-Judaistic] paganised House of Israel under the Messiah , Yeshua said he had come to begin the gathering , but the [many Jewish] saints were killed and scattered worldwide when the 'seven churches of G-d' were destroyed and Rome took over the name [only] of 'christianity' for its pagan religion ... why then do Jews not recognise the slow patient work of the [very few- Rev 7:3-4] saints following the Jewish Messiah's instructions all over the world ? [Matthew 10:6,Matthew 15:24,Acts 2:36,Hebrews 8:8-12, etc, etc...]
The Torah prophesies that it is the lost nation of foolish [G-d-less] House of Israel that will wake up and cause the Jews to become jealous for their Messiah :-
Deuteronomy 32:21 ... and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger witha foolish nation.
Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; andthere thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
Note that the Jews have clung to Judaism, the House of Israel serve other gods, idols ...
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
The House of Israel are the only nation in scripture that are not a people today, yet God has a new covenant with them and sent the Messiah to begin the gathering of a remnant of their children [descendants] from amongst the gentiles because they are now forgiven by the new covenant explicitly with them - see above and Heb 8:8-12]
The scripture is WHOLE, not divided , theONE truth of God , but DIVIDED up both by Jewish teachers and by 'sinner christian' teachers alike in these times ... but you see God has said HE alone will teach EVERYONE eventually in spirit baptism of all flesh [Joel 2:28] ...so why not either read ALL the scripture for ONESELF alone with God, or wait until God teaches you [may well be not in this life , be aware of that!]
Hello Stranger.
Your posts (in this thread) are like picking up a copy of Tolstoys 'war and peace' and starting to read on like page 127....lol. I need to back up and see where you are coming from(in this thread).
Yay, I know, it's a very startling thing indeed, even if logically obvious from its division , to realise that divided religion is run predominantly by Satan and that the scripture shows this , prophesies it in the mouth of Jesus himself
... I guess that I was somewhat 'lucky' in that at only 16 I realised that the churches were stuffy, dead, going nowhere , but realised that the love within shows me God and requires to be manifest , that it is not for keeping. but for endless giving... that is my God then , not any creed invented by sinners to fill pews and their stomachs ... but it has taken over 40 years [in the wilderness?] to piece together what the scripture says, doing it this way is SLOW, not the way the saints receive His truth [John 16:13]
One ends up being grateful for the pain it causes to know even a little of God's truth , because all ofus have to go this way eventually, better to bear some of the pain now perhaps?
This is me,myself as of now.....
I like that a great deal , you avoided the BIG trap , leap of faith into what sinners teach, to come to realise that what we believe now is not what we shall believe tomorrow... it is the very opposite of creedal religion of sinners... a fixed belief made by sinners for sinners that leaves men sinners all their lives, Satan's system, but so very hard to get rid of everything in it without spirit baptism...
No "trinity",Jesus not pre-existent(except as the "plan").
John 1... yes it seems sound ...
No "once saved always saved",I don't believe we are "saved" before being judged anyway. To me "born-again" means being resurrected (to eternal life)
The plan of God, as I understand it so far from scripture , is to 'redeem' all creation to spirit in three more chunks, three widely separated phases , or 'ages' ... first the few so that the perfect priesthood are ready for the start of their massive work supporting the baptism of water, spirit, and 'fire' of the billions in the kingdom of God come to all men in the new earth... then , as the last stage, the most evil of men, those who deny God truth when given to all flesh [Joel 2:28, John 16:13] as Jesus states explicitly too in Revelation, showing its timing...
God has then the pleasure of His will and will perform it, but not all at once! :-
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, andI will do all my pleasure:
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD’S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
God's plan then is beautiful, complete ... the only difference between men is who suffers now the most, who suffers in the end the most [for at the end the most evil are just left to try to live their evil ways, and each simply preys on the others, everyone loses ... it doesn't take that long in the 'fire' from God to make them realise their mistake and abandon Satan , suing for God's mercy that endures right to the very end because He is love :-
Psalms 100:5 For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations
So one could say that in one sense everyone is 'saved' , since no-one will not be redeemed, but there are different lengths of suffering of different intensities for the three groups of people to go through before final rest in the spirit
Thus the FEW saints will be judged at Jesus return and all sinners rejected [no matter they 'call' themselves 'christians' and or 'good works' ], all Christians are saints , as Paul has said :-
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
As for being born again, it is not the translation to spirit from a living body perfected in love that you suppose , but simply spirit baptism.... when God gives all truth to the few saints in this life, the many in the new earth... John 16:13 ... the truth of God is thus the gift of faith also , thus one no longer is left piecing together the scripture , but knows all things and can thus resist Satan and turn to complete love, no more sin, become a saint ...
But remember FEW fin this strait narrow way in this life, and their lives are full of pain and usually leads to unjust death in his name , just as Jesus, the prophets and the other saints before them... it is a way for only one in 800,000 people , it is HARD and strait and required that one is perfect as Jesus and God :-
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
So one cannot even get beyond water baptism without God deciding one is ready for this extreme ordeal of being a saint in this evil world... God simply will not baptise but the few He has given to Jesus under the new covenant with Israel, but there is no way of knowing who the few are except that they know all truth of God and have various other gifts from God ... the churches of sinners of course cannot deliver the spirit from God, so they fake it ... as if they could fool God ???
So all sinners who claim to be born again , may well be baptised in water and want an easy route to salvation, but God is not ready yet for them, bar His few He chose, and they are not ready to suffer the extreme trial, baptism of 'fire' , of the saints, comparably severe as Jesus; trial:-
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
No warm n fuzzy faith without works.
Faith in God is faith in love , love is not something one 'has'. it is something one gives away for free ... thus if one thinks one has faith in love and fails to love, one is simply mistaken [usually because of soothsayings by sinners that one listened to, oily words from Satan through his 'ministers of righteousness, men who think they are 'priests' without being saints !]
2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
No born with an immortal soul,no eternal torture in a hellfire...annililation only.
The soul is the 'life' apparent in a body animated by the spirit given by God ... life ends at death , the soul does not exist in death but is simply 'remembered' by God for resurrection to the body ... the term 'hell' [sheol, hades] refers to the unseen state of the soul in death , even Jesus' soul was 'in hell' , unseen in death .
The only immortal 'life' is life in the spirit, and it is nothing like this 'life' , nothing like this soul... one must be changed [1 Corinthians 15:52], translated, to life in the spirit, and as with Jesus, the body is no more when one is translated ... Jesus was not buried a second time !
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death] shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The soul then begins and ends with life, but is always resurrected from death, from 'hell' TO THE BODY ... resurrection is not translation to spirit
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
No "dispensationalism".the Father has 1 plan and covenant for everyone.
There is only one plan, in scripture, and it is very clearly different than 'dispensationalism' , but there are TWO covenants, BOTH with Israel alone , and the reason is simply that god prophesied that Israel WILL be His holy nation of perfect priests fro his kingdom [Exodus 19:6] , thus His reputation depends upon it being true, He has said that he has the power to make it so through his truth and so will do His pleasure and save Israel first so that they can minster as priests and kings ,perfectly, in the salvation of the gentiles AFTERWARD [Rev 7:9-10]
He(the Father) was never surprised by us and had to slip a Saviour in as a sort of plan B...
LOL... yes, God does not change, He is timeless spirit.... only sinners invented that idea to try to suggest that Israel are not accepted back after their rejection for breaking the old covenant... the new covenant is clear though, it is with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9]
Most men do not need grace then, because only one in a million is saved in THIS life, the many go by the BROAD way [Matt 7] through death and are freed from sin by death, they need no grace, wages of their sin are their death, paid in FULL! :-
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Sinners in churches try to steal grace from Israel, but who can fool God...??? ... rather read what the scripture says and stop believing in sinners, believe on the scripture until God baptises one in this life, or far more likely in the next... then one is truly a new man, with all truth GIVEN by god , able to resist sinning and live acceptably to him, and be redeemed AFTER TRIAL to perfect one's love, suffering ...
but it must be said that the suffering is less in the kingdom of God in the new earth, because MOST men live sinful lives now, whereas the many live righteous lives in the new earth... it makes love much easier when one is surrounded by loving people and has a perfect priesthood, not one made up of sinners ...
No special position for anyone according to their ethnicity,or lineage.no favoritism or discounted land deals..lol
Israel ain't special, they are rebellious and stiff-necked like the rest of us... God rejected them , both divided kingdoms of the nation, and scattered both worldwide... only the Jews hung together as a people because of Judaism, the House of Israel simply merged into the gentiles, never accepting Judaism... God simply gathers them back to Him out of the nations BECAUSE he will show the power his truth has to change the will of men , he will take Israel as His royal priesthood, will have them perfected in love through trial, just like Jesus... then He will use them to minister to billions redeemed in the new earth at or before judgement day ... this is not favouritism, it is simply that God will show His prophecies come true, and uses Israel as His demo of what everyone will go throguh later, just as Jesus went through it first ... we all follow Jesus eventually down this same way, the ONLY way ... Jesus has said all men WILL follow him eventually... just not in this earth :-
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
All then accept Jesus in the end , it's just a matter of time , and when one accepts the suffering of trial... [something the sinner churches largely gloss over... baptism of 'fire']
we either believe in and try to follow Gods demands,or we thumb our nose at Him. We either go to sleep and wake up to life,or wake up to an explanation then hopefully a humane end.
Boring I know,just making conversing with me a bit easier I hope...
GBU
Not quite , my insightful friend ... we are GIVEN new belief [born again] by God when he is ready to deal with our beliefs under Satan , thus look at where the faith of the saints comes from, not from men, but from God in spirit baptism :-
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is thegift of God:
Thus what most people call 'The faith' is simply faith in what sinners say , thus as we see ,it is DIVIDED and thus obviously from Satan, not the spirit ... God truth is one, and all those baptised of the spirit come to agree as ONE long enough before death to become saints by trial of this ONE faith in love... to love with no sin during life for long enough to impress God that one is ready for translation ... if not then it is back to life as a sinner for a lot longer...
Life is about when one suffers then ... many will put off the suffering until the 'lake of fire from God' , not giving up evil until it is seen to fail them... God is quite prepared for that, he is the perfect shepherd of His creation...
Men mostly do not realise that ALL men are being used for God's purpose, not their own vain purposes in life... it is painful, but revealing to see God's point of view in scripture that men going opposite directions all serve Him alone
Romans 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
...growing up Lutheran means people saying or implying "Christ will accept or reject you based on you being loving" sets off all sorts of "justification by faith and not works of the law" alarms.(But clarifying the rejected are just rejected as kings/priests turned most of them off)
yes, I understand... but what 'alarms' are still ringing... it is to everyone's use that you do not ignore any of them, they are one's insight... talk about them if you will, my friend...
What's the place of faith in your view anyway? Is it something like what Tattedsaint said, that "only faith in Christ saves, but all will come to faith"? And then be perfected through that faith, whether in this life or the next?
That is some of it, but one must bear in mind what Jesus said [Rev 13:3-8] that what most people come to think of as 'The Faith' in a christ, their saviour as they see it at the time, is faith in the antichrist, the one in place of Christ ... Thus it is Satan that drives religion in this world, Satan who is GIVEN power to delude mankind to worship his image of a saviour through creedal religion , it is God's plan to do so :-
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
God explains His plan in 2Thess 2 through Paul, men just ignore it and carry on with tradition , even knowing its history ... it surprises me so much that I still argue with god that His plan would fall apart if more men read his scripture ... that He seems to find amusing in me , and I see His point , we are so blind that we cannot see what is written before our eyes in black and white, we stumble at noon-day because we cannot escape what we have learned from the world in denial of the pricks of our consciences ... it is easy to forget that all men serve God when He is allowing all the earth to worship the dragon that will do miracles and seem to be the Messiah returned doing great works for mankind ... men cannot free themselves from beliefs they accepted before understanding the scripture , but how could anyone truly say they believe the scripture before understanding what it all says ??? ... it is a damning logical argument against divided creedalism which rules religion and the world of divided mankind... it will be far worse [especially for the few saints] when religion unites under the antichrist...
Thus when people talk of 'faith' as though it were just one thing, I have to ask "faith in what ?".... faith in a false christ only leads one to death, so what use strong faith in a lie? ... Yet God tells us that almost all people will believe the lie ... and He has a reputation for being right! He seems to like it when I see He wins all the arguments I have with Him, and I am glad too when He wins because it is understanding he allows us to come to , that He is right because He is worthy to be our God ... creedal religion though is not a worthu 'faith' at all , but many, almost all, will come to believe in creedalism yet ... never understanding the scriptures before committing to 'faith' that kills them for certain ...
yet death is God's answer to not having to provide grace for everyone ...
Romans 6:7 [REB] For, he that hath died, hath become righteously acquitted from his sin.
Thus if we read the new covenant carefully we should see that it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] and thus not with the billion and more 'chrsitians' who have 'faith' that they are saved despite being sinners to death [along with their sinner priests of course]
Thus we find few people who will read this scripture as it is written :-
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
In the first instance it is written ONLY to those who become saints , who are of the House of Judah or the House of Israel, previously rejected, but now accepted [Jer 31:31-34] ,
and in the second instance simply read what it says ... faith is NOT something of ourselves , we do not LEAP into faith in love as sinners would have us leap into believing them ... rather faith is GIVEN by God in spirit baptism WHEN he decides we are ready for it and He is ready for us to believe Him, not Satan...
Thus we find the truth in scripture that FEW are to find the narrow way of sainthood in this earth because God will make His priesthood perfect first [so much for sinners who make themselves priests and presume to drag others down into divided religion of traditional creeds of men ?]
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
One cannot then GET faith in love, in God , one abandoned it as a child in learning to live the world's way under Satan, and Satan is not the fool many take him for, he is well aware of the power of religion in this world ... divided religion is simply the means to create the urge for unity that makes men compromise completely their love and accept the new world religion of the new christ to come , but Jesus warned that it will be the antichrist, not himself ... men will not heed that warning, but will spin things as usual , likely say that someone in the past was the antichrist, [say Hitler or some other figure perhaps? ... men truly mostly believe what they want to believe , it is integral to the paradox we are that we so deepmost want to love and be loved , but do no such thing to everyone with our lives... the world of Satan and religion steals our love and we cannot find it again without God's intervention to restore our naive faith in love - that we had as little children before it was taken away by the world saying love is 'impractical' and not 'grown-up' and so on ...]
We find then that despite what our institutions teach us, that God is actually in total control, and prophesied the apostasy of the whole world from belief in love, belief in Him... quite simply it is HIS plan, the way to trap Satan and get him out of the way for a thousand years whist the new earth kingdom is set up using the few [only] that god requires as the priests and kings in the new earth... but this time everyone is PERFECT in love BEFORE they rule or teach anyone ... the power is on the side of faith in love, not faith in Satan's sin way of 'life' [that actually leads only to grey death, a sort of living torment which men call 'civilisation' and 'progress' ... and of course it still hasn't stopped even now we know we are destroying our very home, the earth, destroying nature that feeds us faster than she can recover... we see our way of death and still do not stop.... we cannot save ourselves ...
Thus God's plan, somewhat inevitably unfolds , as it si written, but men do not mostly believe it the way it is written... I am trying to come to terms with that, I still find it hard to believe that we are so blinded by 'faith' in unlovingness that we cannot see what is before our eyes, written down as soon as men could write it down... but then my own blindness is long-standing, and I cannot see too well yet either, why should I find it so hard to understand how easy it is for God to blind men through our vanity...?
The other side of the coin is that we feel such pain in simply being told by God His truth about ourselves, no pain comes close to it, yet the pain is of no importance, it is illusion, for there is no pain in perfect love which will come to all eventually... but the pain keeps us blind awhile... allows God's plan to proceed with its perfect timing, removing men bit by bit IRREVERSIBLY from Satan's grasp ... but you see the scripture says that the first batch after Jesus comes at his return... just 144,000 saints form this whole earth, one in a million or so only!
But that is all god needs for each of those can bring 'home' to love another 144,000 i the kingdom come in the new earth, as priests as perfect as Jesus, sons of God ... thus that amounts to over 10 billion redeemed afterward [Rev 7:9-10] comparable to the number of men that ever lived.... God thus requires but a few at first ...and thus the many are left gnashing their teeth at Jesus' return, at being lied to by their priests ... but their priests were sinners to death too, mean could have read the scripture and known that neither divided religion, nor united world religion was true ... it does not really matter what label one puts on it, it is simply the way God tells it i scripture and thus the way it must be [if the God of scripture is the true god] ...
The key to seeing through religion then is to read the scripture and see it does not say what those who say that they 'believe' it [before knowing what it says!] say that it says... one can disprove ALL creedal religion using only the scripture as written... but I think that is very hard to do that once one commits to believing the mock priests BEFORE understanding the whole as a whole :-
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but byevery word of God.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Men thus teach men religion and demand 'faith' in the words of sinners [under gruesome threats of being lost somehow by the loving God, the good Shepherd is supposed to mislay some somehow !], but the saints do not teach the saints at all , the new covenant itself [Heb 8:8-12] says so! :-
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
There is the difference between the 'congregation' of God of the few saints, and the churches full of sinners taught by sinners...
now saints , such as St Paul , were sent to teach sinners a little about Israel and the saints , a mercy mission to save sinners some pain later in the new earth... whereas the other disciples main mission was NOT to the gentile sinners , but to find the lost house of Israel's remnant who were to continue to provide saints for the world to kill , never completely dying out though , just a couple of thousand or so scattered worldwide, keeping the tiny congregation of saints going until Jesus' returns....
Thus how can one find true faith in this world? ... the answer is that one cannot do so of oneself... it has to come from God, and He will only give all His truth , the gift of faith in love because it is the only true way , to a few for now , he has said so and explained why. but is fully aware that few will listen ...cos' men prefer to be spoon-fed their 'faith' by sinners ....
Thus all things REQUIRE proof from scripture ,and modern religion needs reproof to scripture, but will never accept it ...not this side of death ...
The saints then are required to prove all things from the whole scripture even though they are given it all by God Himself :-
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The reason is simply the power of persuasion of Satan, that almost overcomes even the saints ,just prior to Jesus' return... it is hard for them to go against everyone in the world, people they love... Jesus thus cuts short the time to save them failing at the last ...
Thus ,when one talks of 'faith' , what can one mean if one does not understand all truth and know all scripture... what is one saying one has faith in , if one says one believes scripture but does not know what it says ???
Are the "many" who are let into the Kingdom just people who had faith in this life but not perfection, or everyone regardless of faith?
Men mostly truly convince themselves they have faith in what sinners say , never however does that leap sit comfortably in them, they know that they will lose that belief because their own hearts assure them of that.... true faith [imho] is faith in 'love', but we do not know love until after spirit baptism reveals all truth to us [John 16:13]
So what point rushing to claim to have 'faith' and 'be saved' when one's heart tells one what true faith already exists only in it , largely denied, but impossible to silence except in death...? ...
God has promised to teach everyone Himself [Joel 2:28] what we already know ! [and so will recognise as the truth about love]... so why can men not wait for faith to be given? ... clearly we cannot most do this, even saints have trouble with having patience with God's plan...
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
Thus the many who sincerely believe they have faith in what sinners preach contrary to scripture in divided religion [or even when religion eventually unites] will be ALL the world [Rev 13:3-8] bar a handful of saints.... the many of Rev 7:9-10 are thus made up of people of all nations and beliefs from this world...
Those who go on to a second death for sin after receiving all God's truth in the new earth are simply what we would view as the most evil of men, those committed to Satan's ways ... God can only deal with them by letting them try to live with evil when there is no-one left who does not do as much evil to them as they do ... it is a simple effective loving solution for those who will not believe it whe God tells them Himself...
What scripture backs up that view? I know fire is an oft used symbol of purification in the Bible, Jesus hardly said anything straight, and that Revelations is part of an extremely metaphorical literary tradition, so have doubted the "eternal punishing fire" view for a while now.
Baptism of 'fire' is used as the symbol of the necessary trial of GIVEN faith to perfect love of all men eventually... the lake of 'fire' is no exception.... men know what is right , men cannot deny that love is right because our hearts and consciences will not cease that 'fire' of conflict within us that says what we need to do but do not do ...
The fire is simply the conflict within us between what we do ,sin, and what we most would want to do, love
The whole scripture is about this, you can read it on almost every page if you look ... it is declared from the beginning right to the end the glory of love over sin that is God's inevitable triumph ... but one scripture says it as absolutely in one verse as any other combination I have quoted :-
Revelation 5:13 [REB] And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!
the rest follows from simply coming to understand Gods written plan as written in the whole of scripture... it is not just in one place [else men would surely have edited it out ,since it denies creedal religion] ... you must then read the scripture as a whole to understand why God takes so long with his redemption, why it is not all at once as sinners claim it to be and billions have 'faith' that it is ...
I am no saint and thus no teacher ... and welcome reproof to the scripture from anyone who know more than I about any part of it ... you would do well to look at the scriptures and find out for yourself if what i have seen in them is true to what they say ... then you can tell me what you see in them and I shall be glad of your co-operative help... sinners should have a union so we act together, not fight to see who can claim they are right in our ignorance , indeed a congregational area for all who realise they are not saints but seeking what to believe in WITHOUT commitment until we understand all the scripture ... instead of the division this site encourages ...
thus do not make the mistake of thinking that I am proposing a creed or 'church' ... I merely want to discuss the scripture and reprove endlessly until God baptises me in this life or the next ...
then I might well like to teach and die like the saints and prophets and Jesus, if , as seems unlikely, it were in this life ... but then it is not a matter of chance...
Thus simply observe in reading Revelation that God has removed all who believe what He gives them as truth from the lake of fire, and thus realise that when it says Satan and those close to him are left there leading those who reject God truth to God's face, then these really are the most evil of men who believe in evil as a way ... what then do you think will happen when they try to live but have no-one who is not as evil to them ... suddenly there is no benefit in evil, it is just continual loss as all evil men suffer their own evil done to them by the only men left who are just as evil...
It seems to me simple and elegant proof that whilst evil seemed to work when there were relatively good people to prey upon in this world ,who largely didn't didn't prey back or rebel against all evil , by removing the vast bulk of these, God can make His point to the wicked and get them to sue for His enduring mercy .. until Satan is left alone, broken, god having shown His 'prodigal son' that he is no god at all, no followers whatsoever ...
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Again, Satan is a created being ... and Jesus says that all created beings will accept him as Lord in the end ...Revelation 5:13 ...the most powerful statement about redemption in all scripture ...
Is there any connection between religion and God ?
Is atheism closer to the God of 'love' than religion?
I find my atheistic friends arguing rationally and correctly against the false god worshipped by modern christianity of sinners...
It is no graet triumph because those who have committed to belief in any fixed system of belief [creed] have closed their minds .
Equally some atheists close their minds in faith in the completely relative system of logic, which is not complete , proven not to be even, but men still use it irrationally as though it were complete...
The problem then is not the meaningless claims to be right by those with closed minds on both sides who can never even hope to see the other person's viewpoint, but is the reason behind people closing their minds BEFORE they do actually KNOW in themselves...
It is the feeling of the need for a leap of faith into something one truly KNOWS that one does not KNOW that causes the problem... and there is no use in pretending that what one believes is right because one does not know that ...
Thus for instance to reveal why christian sinners do not know the truth one only has to read the scripture and compare it to any one of the countless divided tales of sinners that so many say the believe ... these folks say the believe the scripture , but then turn around and say that they do not understand it all
... clearly one cannot possibly truly believe what one doesn't understand..
And when the details are checked against all the scripture then one finds the errors made by the so-called 'founders' of the countless sects/denominations ...
Of course if one then challenges the rigid belief system, then it just changes the meaning of the scripture to suit its belief until it cannot do so, and then claims that this or that part of the 'canon' wasn't something to be believed anyway ...
a brief central example :
Heb 8:8-9 states clearly that the new covenant, the grace of God, is for those whose fathers broke the old covenant ...
clearly showing that it's statement that it is with the House of Judah and the House of Israel , the two halves of anciently-divided Israel, is true ...
but almost all 'christian' sinners want to claim that they are 'under grace' when the new covenant is explicitly only with descendants of Jacob ...
this new covenant was given to Israel in the OT -Jer 31:31-34 - and ratified by Jesus as the one king come to re-unite Israel into ONE nation of priests [Exodus 19:6, Ezekiel 37:22] who then rule and minister in God's kingdom later ... so sinners will be saved by Jesus , but not until after [Rev 7:9-10 ]the second resurrection
Again the scripture says that FEW find the narrow strait way in this life [Matt 7:14] and Jesus says that the many are saved later [Rev 7:9-10] , so how do almost all 'christians' come to believe that the many are saved in this life?
The answer lies in that sinners now teach sinners who teach other sinners, it is a power process which robs people of the ability to see what the scripture says and reprove their beliefs to what Jesus and the saints of God taught ...
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Thus we end up with the christian sinner religion not saying the same things as the God talked about in scripture which says that Christians must all cease from all sin , else if not saints by the time Jesus returns then he never knew them and will not take them then:-
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We have then an impenetrable barrier to even the assertions of scripture and a billion and more men believing divided tales which simply cannot be from God because the scripture is what shows us God
[until spirit baptism of the FEW -John 16:13 - to come to know all truth in THIS life, but clearly most men and all christian sinners ,do not EVER know all truth in THIS life]
Do the Jews then have the truth about the God of scripture?
Clearly a FEW of the saints are Jews, just as Jesus and the earliest Christian saints are Jews , but Jesus says only 144,000 saints will be taken at his return [Rev 7:3-8] and most of those are from tribes who never accepted Judaism, never became Jews ... so one can estimate that fewer than a thousand Jews alive today are saints, but that most of the saints are from the House of Israel to whom alone Jesus was sent , and the new covenant of grace is not only with the Jews [House of Judah] but with the idolatous lost paganised House of Israel , scattered amongst all nations but NOT keeping Judaism :-
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
again, his disciples are sent to the House of Israel, only teaching others incidentally on the way :-
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
...
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Thus only a few Jews are to be saints in this life and taken at Jesus' return, the rest of the two thousand or so saints still alive at any one time are apparently gentiles, living as gentiles, but true descendants of Jacob through the House of Israel, a nation which ceased to be a recognisable people because they did not have Judaism to hold them together like the Jews ...
The role of this remnant of children of the House of Israel is however critical in scripture, for it is these few who eventually convince the last few Jews about the apostasy of Judaism :-
Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Thus we find on simply examining the scripture WITHOUT prior decision to believe any religion, that the prophecy of the future by the God of scripture has nothing to do with the tales of sinners that dominate the world of religion ...
It is a startling truth to most folks, but in fact the scripture predicts it, that all men but the few saints will be worshipping the wrong god by the time of Jesus' return...
There is little point in my atheist friends disproving the god of the sinner christians and Jews then, since they are disproving a god that does not exist ...
It is curious to me that atheists spend so much time working out what they do NOT believe in ... rather I find that most of them DO believe in 'love' in some form of meaning of that ambiguous word ... and Jesus in fact commanded love to the saints and said that love is what we can know of God ... it is an interesting enigma to me that many atheists may have more faith in 'God' than sinner christians and most Jews ...
The blessing and the curse ... the role of non-Jewish Israelites in scripture
Deut 30:1 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
...
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Israel agreed to the curse upon them for breaking the old covenant and yet curiously few of Israel have noticed that God grew tired of ritual sacrifices which had become mechanical, not spiritual :-
Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
But Israel has almost suffered long enough the anger of god for their disobedience to Him, it surely is time for Israel to recognise that the NEW covenant was given to THEM, no-one else ... Jer 31:31-34
St Paul, Jewish saint of the new covenant explains that the new covenant is with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9]
It is surely time to realise that the old covenant did not serve to cause many to follow what God requires of men , perfection of love...
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
God has said who will be the first redeemed at the return of the Messiah and they are all descendants of Jacob , named by his sons, the leaders of the tribes of Israel ...Rev 7:3-8
But Israel is not first by merit of keeping the old covenant, because that has failed men if it were meant to redeem men [rather than show men that they cannot keep a creed even to save themselves]
No, Israel is first simply because God had to name some people in prophecy else it would not be prophecy,and He chose Israel , so now they are unconditionally accepted, but NOT without repentance, not without even more suffering as God perfects love in the few saints of Israel He WILL take first...
And that is the point, there is only a small remnant of Israel taken by the Messiah first, clearly God cannot perfect the love of the dead !
Many of Israel have died sinners and many of Israel today will also die sinners , not perfected in love in this life ...
Thus even those who are Jews do not know that they will betaken at the return of the Messiah , and much of Israel is unknown, many from the tribes have been living as gentiles for some three millenia now, not all have memory or traces of their ancestry dating back to Jacob... many have lived in idolatry all this time :-
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
God thus scattered Israel amongst ALL nations, not just the Jews , but the Northern kingdom too, the House of Israel...
Now the Jews and some of the Northern kingdom have kept or returned or come to Judaism and thus maintained their knowledge that they are Israel , but other parts of the tribes stayed with idolatry as Moses asserts above... thus there si a vast 'nation' of Israelites out there who are not recognisable as Jews , do not keep Judaism ...
The prime task of the Messiah is NOT the firstfruit few , the 144,000, but the unification of ALL Israel into one holy nation of priests to serve as ministers and kings in the redemption of the masses of gentiles afterward, in the kingdom of God come to all men...
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
It is Moses then who said this , and Jeremiah who showed Israel the new covenant ... it is a mistake then to have rejected the Messiah simply because 'christianity of sinners' invented by Rome has the WRONG story about Jesus/Y'shua ... reject modern apostate 'christianity' by all means , since it is obviously false to scripture [despite saying it agrees with scripture!] , but that is no reason at all to reject the Messiah ..
The significance of the 'lost' part of Israel, those who do not keep Judaism , was given by Moses too :-
Deuteronomy 32:21 ... I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Was Moses talking in riddles here? ... How can a nation not be a people ?
Yet the House of Israel DID cease to be a people , unlike the 'Jews' who held together as a people because of Judaism :-
Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it benot a people.
We know that Ephraim then did not return to any form of Judaism , else they would be recognised as a people, as Jews ... but God still sees teh House of Israel as a nation and sent the Messiah to reach them FIRST so that they could make the Jews jealous, as Moses prophesied , with knowledge of the still-awaited Jewish Messiah!
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray,
Psalms 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; andone king shall be king to themall: and theyshall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any moreat all:
The teaching then comes BACK to the Jews by their rejected cousins, the House of Israel, simply because God says it will happen that way ...
Note that the Jews have never ceased to be a people , and still do not mostly accept anyone as being of Israel who does not keep some semblance of Judaism... but Judaism is not the criterion of Israel, descent from Jacob is ...
Jeremiah witnesses that the Jews have gone astray in Judaism, and we know the House of Israel went astray in idolatry ... the coming together of ALL the tribes is thus a reproof of religious creeds held by BOTH nations in coming to be one holy nation led by the truth of the Messiah under the new covenant with Israel , with both Houses [Jer 31:31-34]
The lost nation who are not currently regarded as Jews will thus be holy alongside the Jews of today eventually :-
1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
The main 'obstacle' to this understanding that scripture is ONE truth of God is that modern sinner 'christianity' tried to write the Jews out of their inheritance under God... impossible of course ... but that is why 'christianity' went wrong, trying to ignore the OT...
the Jews fared little better though and have tried to reject the criticism by God of their creedal ritualistic religion through their own prrophets and still very much cling to the old covenant and simply ignore that Jeremiah told them about the new covenant even before the Messiah came...
The solution may be to simply stop ignoring the new covenant and the JEWISH saints of the new covenant who witness the future of Israel in the NT ...
The curse is almost over , thank God for His mercy on Israel, but it will not be over until the Jews stop clinging to the old covenant and acknowledge THEIR new covenant ...
Sadly the prophecy si that Israel will yet again suffer terrible slaughter in the Holy Land [for taking it by force when God has said that He alone will GIVE it to Israel eventually] , one last almost unbelievable slaughter of sinful Israel, before God turns to slaughter all other nations for their sin [much of it against Israel , for millenia]
The curse still has terrible consequences which Israel agreed with god under their old covenant, it truly is nearly time for them to see that they have a new one and the old one is a way of death because they cannot please God with their inability to keep it...
The blessing awaits the truth from the House of Israel making the Jews jealous for their Messiah.... how long Lord?
Know O People of God , your God is spirit, One Being, One God, One Lord, as ONE
ONE is an important number... three is not anywhere in scripture related to God ...
God is One , whole, complete...
God is spirit...
The spirit of God is God then , not another...
God has MANY spirits given to every being , and the return to God at death :-
Quote:
Genesis 2:7 So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the spirit of all the flesh of men.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
God can send an evil spirit in a man :-
Quote:
1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul...
Thus the spirits of God manifest as good and evil in men , there is not just one spirit of god, the spirit of truth is just one of MANY ...
Equally , how many sons does God have ? The bible talks of MANY and Satan coming among them to present himself to God when God calls his sons together to present themselves ...
Quote:
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Thus if one is going to count the spirits and sons of God , then three is not the answer ... God presents many 'faces' to men, not just three , there simply is no 'threeness' about God only many aspects ALL ONE in Him...
Creeds are no use to men except to follow sinners ...
I disbelieve all creedal religion because the scripture disproves them all
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
Does any of hundreds of thousands of different variations on religion have all truth to offer us ?
Who teaches creedal religion except sinners then ?
Who teaches the saints of God of His 'congregation' :-
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[Jesus]
How many come to this truth in this life according to Jesus? {Rev 7:3-4] and Matthew? [Matt 7:14] and Jude? and Enoch?
How many believe creedal religion?
When are the many saved [translated to spirit] ? {Rev 7:9-10]
No religion I know of teaches that Jesus saves the many after the second resurrection as scripture shows...
For my self I have faith through the desire to love , and see that Jesus spoke of love as what we can know of God whilst in human form ... I would rather trust in saints than in the sinners who teach religion against the scripture of the saints... divided religion when God's truth is ONE truth necessarily ... religion really is not much use to me without the spirit of truth promised to ALL Jesus' followers ....
The ways of the few and the MANY saved through Jesus' way of departing from sin
Originally Posted by Markus6
So departing from iniquity is the narrow way? What's the broad way?
The broad way is the way Jesus and the saints describe of the MANY [Rev 7:9-10] saved through death and destruction [Matt 7: 13] of this earth to the second resurrection [of the unjust]:-
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Thus those who are the few saints are taken early to become the priests and kings who will administer to the many at their later resurrection , a straightforward plan, one needs only a few priests and kings and needs them readied first :-
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Do they reign ,under Jesus as king of kings and high priest, in THIS earth though, Jesus says not :-
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
Thus although the ruling of God is established in the hearts and minds of the few in this life [Heb 8:8-12] by grace, most men are freed from sin by death :-
Romans 6:7 {REB] For, he that hath died, hath become righteously acquitted from his sin.
We may note then that most men die sinners , even the 'religious' of this world ... most men die without knowing all truth from God in this life , most men thus die without spirit baptism in this life [John 16:13] , but Jesus promised this truth to ALL his followers... it shows that the followers of Jesus are indeed few in this life, despite that many say they follow him , again he explains the difference in Matt 7....
BUT God has promised all truth to all men eventually {Joel 2:28] , so we know that those MANY resurrected at the second resurrection will be baptised then, not in this world ... and we know they will live loving righteous lives, as saints, in the new earth. Peter reveals this :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
So the many are not saved by grace, but saved by works in the new earth kingdom come to all men , and ALL men are released from hell, none are lost , none are tormented in death [as if flogging a dead man were any more effective than flogging a dead horse] :-
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judgedevery man according to their works.
So MANY will be saved at or before judgement day in the new earth, that is the beginning of the broad way through being freed from sin by one's death , indeed it is the only reason that death is the wages of sin...
Thus all men are saved by Jesus' way of departing from sin , but a few are taken in this life so they are ready to serve in the new earth kingdom when the many are resurrected... all have to depart from sin sometime , all also have to be tried to see if their love is true , it is part of the way Jesus described , one has to be baptised of water, the spirit and of fire :-
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shallbaptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
The 'blood' refers to the fact that the trial by fire is to the death for the saints , many of the few already died in Christ in their trial of faith...
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Well, to be fair, we think gods are just things theists imagine
If one looked at the widet possible definition of a 'god' , which everyone would accept as its widest mening , it is that which one most respects , the thing on which one bases one's life...
Thus men speak of moey as the 'god' of some men . it does not mena that money is a spirit or is the creator, or is transcendental , metaphysical, or that a god needs to be a being ...
The essence of a god is simply that one believes in it ...
thus men ave created our own gods and have yet to find out that the God who si seen through love may be the only one who delivers what we truly need in the end....
The other point is that EVERYONE most respects something ... so in this widest sense there are no atheists [not that many atheists accept this of course]
The proof of faith at the basis of reason is perhaps the act of faith that most atheists ignore ... because atheists like to think themselves starting from basics in their thoughts and beliefs... but there are axioms at the basis of reason, and there is paradox too in applying reason as if it were a complete system when we know it cannot be used that way rationally [Godel formal incompleteness theorem 1931]
The pardox then is that most people , including most atheists I know, use reason irrationally and do not acknowledge the dependence of their beliefs as being dependent upon blind faith [in axioms]
Scripturally the Jewish saints must 'wake up' soon... 
suffer terrible slaughter in the Holy Land [for taking it by force when God has said that He alone will GIVE it to Israel eventually] , one last almost unbelievable slaughter of sinful Israel, before God turns to slaughter all other nations for their sin [much of it against Israel , for millenia]
Reasons that reason is a poor 'god' to follow ... 
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