The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Bible [or 'some sinners have learned how to read']

stranger · #31 29th October 2007, 10:49 AM

Torah is the laws, then there are the Prophetic writings which agree and teach those laws, and the Scriptures which do the same.

You will come to see as you read, that the truth is in the details, then you will see the 'fronts' which men worship as 'religion' in place of the whole scripture of God as ONE truth ... it is the little bits men leave out, and the bits they twist to fit their apostate traditions , that give the clue, and then one begins to see how Jewish religion went almost as wrong as paganised chrsitianity has done, simply because both are led by sinners , not saints....

The few saints meanwhile continue the slow but relentless work of God in the background, almost unnoticed by most men, whilst Satan is allowed to take over all the religion of this world [Rev 13:3-7]

The 'take-over bid' fails of course , and Satan is actually killed at the return of Jesus to claim his few saints and begin setting up the kingdom with them ... but we have soon to live through the unification of world religion under a figure whom most Jews and almost all christians will believe is the Messiah ... it has to be so, since this is the beginning of God's humbling of Satan, but almost all men must thus be deceived , else Satan will not confess his heart [2Thess 2:4] and so not be humbled when his bid to be god of all men fails...

But then when you come to the NT, it just gets confusing. Three Gospels virtually identical in many aspects.

I think it is the differences between them which are more telling ... they were taught to very different audiences [Romans, Egyptians, Jews] as Christianity of the Hebrew saints spread out looking for the House of Israel as Jesus instructed ... what did you find confusing there, it is quite important not to ignore what confuses one, there are truths to be learned from all that confuses one's past beliefs!

Then there is John which is much different.

John is so beautiful compared to the other 'gospels' , he was so much closer to Jesus, understood the spiritual side of things so much [where the others seem so crudely locked in the world sometimes]... and of course it is John to whom the Revelation of Jesus was entrusted by God 's messenger ... I find it awesome insight , not just the 'gospel' but his epistles and the Revelation which expounds so much of the OT ...

Then the Pauline writings that seem to contradict James.

Can you explain what contradiction you saw, it is surely significant, well worth investigation , do not just leave it

Paul is very different than the other apostles, they were sent to find the House of Israel, he was sent to teach the gentiles about Israel's role as the priesthood who will redeem them later [much later, over a thousand years after Jesus' return, but what matters a thousand years when one is dead! ]

Paul then has been the focus of more spin by Roman mock christianity and its offshoots than anyone in scripture... one cannot trust anything but the scripture about him , and even then one has the problem of biased translation and additions and subtractions from the original [which we do not have of course, only various somewhat differing copies... so much is said by the differences ,as usual!]

So while I enjoy the parables and all, it is just really confusing to me. It is not consistent (imo) as the Tanakh is.

Yes , well, you are right about the consistency, the Tanakh has been 'worked on' and modified to make it as consistent as possible for much loner than the NT ... but what one wants is the original inspirations of God, not something that has been worked on by sinners to make it seem consistent mostly ... God's one truth is wholly consistent, after all it has to be so... do not confuse that with the work men have done for millenia to make the 'pin' seem consistent... look for the bits which don't quite fit , that couldn't be made to fit... look for the bits omitted because they could not be made to fit, look in depth at the details and yearn to God when you get confused... then one slowly emerges from belief in sinners into belief in love which is god,and finds it behind the glossy polished fronts of religion that are actually only gilded, not the gold of God's truth...

When I have a question about Divorce, I go to the Torah and it tells me. When I look in the NT, I see Jesus contradicting the Torah calling it adultery and all. So it is just like what?!

Like , this happens all the time in scripture, do not stop at the point you are confused, delve deeper and find out what is behind the confusion, what is the cause... it takes time, but it eventually moves one to the truth of God,something one 'feels' in one's heart of love to be true... and then one sees eventually why it was made to seem wrong , even what purpose was behind what seemed a contradiction at the time... we can work through a few examples if you like, this one if you like?

If the NT was more consistent, then I would probably enjoy it more. And maybe it is... Maybe I am just reading it wrongly.

If you know the OT first then it illuminates the NT ... and the NT expounds many things in the OT which seem rather strange without the NT explanation... these two parts then are not separate at all, they are one ...but religion of both Jews and sinner 'christians' has torn them apart artificially, and still works today feverishly to stop people uniting them and seeing that both Jew and mock christian are wrong, they are ONE truth, at least the originals were , as indeed they obviously must be if from one God.....

. The Torah just answers any question I have. The NT does not do that.

Hmmm... the Jews love writing explicit answers to everything, which i guess makes life easy ... the problem , which Jesus highlighted, is what they miss out, some BIG things, whilst dissecting the tiniest points... not seeing the wood for the trees ...

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The thing is though that all this must be so, God is not even ready yet for all Israel to convert to His truth :-

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

God's plan relies completely on perfect timing of when people come to His truth... He removes men from Satan's grasp , enslavement to sin, in stages, , progressively more and more ... starting with Jesus, ten teh144,000 saints at his return, then all Israel as the perfect priesthood of kings, then the many of the gentiles, then the rest through the lake of fire, thise who reject even His spirit poured out on them....

It is hard to explain how beautiful is this plan, it is so intricate, so fool-proof, so perfectly timed, so inevitable even with our limited capacity to understand cause ... and all written down from the beginning in the Torah, but in such a way that even the Jews and the House of Israel do not yet most understand it , since He is not ready for them all to do so yet... only the few find the narrow strait way of saints in this life [Matt 7] ... innumerably many later in the kingdom come[Rev 7:9-10] that many paradoxically prey for but do not understand yet, are not allowed to ....

Now I do have one last question.. Why have Christians for thousands of years been in error when it comes to their understanding of hell? Was it because of the mighty Catholic Church in your opinion, or?

The Catholic Church might seem mighty, but they are only sinners and not of Israel even, they are just 'daughters' of the 'harlot' Israel , offshoots of apsotate Jerusalem ... and of course have spawned countless more daughters, all as much harlots as themselves whilst rejecting their mother 'church' and their 'grandmother', Israel ...

How could one explain to the Jews that anti-Semitism which has killed so many of them so gruesomely, is the work of God to slow down their coming to knowledge of Him... they would not listen past the first few words because the pain is too great...

It is just the same with the may Catholic myths and the 'denominations' myths ... all just slow down things to god's pace to his rythym of His song, his beautiful all-encompassing plan... this I think you are likely blessed to come to see, since you have been moved to ask the question, it is at least clear to me that God wants you to know the answer.... be aware though that knowledge of God's truth brings great pain , until it grows so large that one cannot bear to face it a while, God slows one down a bit , because He is not ready yet... so even as individuals we are paced by God toward the goal of redeeming all to gain acceptance by all of love , of God, that makes Him THE god ... of love...

Hah, while you are about to go to sleep, I am still 4 hours from eating dinner! It is barely 4:54 PM here and most people here eat at like 8:00.

Yes and in that a lesson about the messing u of time-keeping, how men came to lose sight of holy days, even most Jews separated from their precious sabbath for a while by Satan with God's permission, until Jesus restores it and other sabbaths in the kingdom... it is one test of the saints that I noticed, that they will keep the true sabbath as set by god as a sign, not the 'chrsitian' mockery ,nor the Jewish altered timing by 'Halakhic law' of the blinded shepherds, the rabbis ...

stranger · #32 30th October 2007, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by fancais

I think putting one to death for missing the sabbath is definitely wrong. But obviously there are many implications before. 2 witnesses, warning before, etc.

Note that only Israel are put to death for polluting holy sabbath...

The blessing on sabbaths [Gen 2:3] is for all men who know when they are and keep them... for instance the holy sabbath was blessed long before the old covenant agreement of [only]Israel to KEEP it on pain of death...

The point is then that it is given to Israel as a sign, the sign that they are His people ... when they polluted it [and many Jews still do, by following Halakhic law!] they were rejected by God because they rejected His sign ... thus if they did not leave the community of Israel they were subject to being killed because God knew they would serve no further purpose in this life toward their salvation, and they would cause others in Israel to pollute sabbath... hence He simply moves them on to their next life in the new earth ...

death pronounced by God is thus very different than murder of a man by another man for personal grudge or vain goal i this world... consider that God is simply pronouncing judgement that anyone in Israel who accepted the old covenant and broke it simply cannot become perfect before death, and thus is completely sure to die anyway... since God will resurrect all men ,He is simply moving them on to where they can be redeemed and getting them out of the way of tempting others of Israel to follow their example of tarnishing god's holy sign to and of Israel...

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

The death penalty is only on Israel note , only on those who agreed to keep the old covenant and its curse if they did not ... thus there is no death penalty on non-Israelites, none on the children of Israel [descendants of Jacob] who have NOT agreed the old covenant but who keep sabbath as the sign of God voluntarily under their new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9]

God gave life then by the spirit breathed into every man that is His, not ours , He can take it away a while if it serves His purpose to do so ... the purpose of God is what the worlds are about, not the saving of men from up to two deaths... [deaths which free us from sin, so serve a very real purpose in us - Romans 6:7]

But I obviously agree there are some laws I disagree with in the Torah.. Like its homophobic attitude and all.

It would be good to go through all the laws you disagree with , preferably by arguing your point with God... this is what I do, he always wins arguments in the end and we are both pleased by that

The very word 'homophobic' is a modern invention , God is not 'homophobic' , He has perfect love for all men and is not afraid of facing down sin in all of us... can one really believe that god is afraid of facing the problems caused by homosexuality, or turn away from discussing what is wrong with such homosexual practices as sodomy?

If we examine modern changes in attitude, one is that men seem to have lost sight of the biological fact that sex exists to keep mankind varied genetically and thus resistant to such things as plagues ... sexual pleasure is the means the body is moved to bondage between male and female as the natural mechanism of reproduction in humans ... men simply cannot reproduce with men , thus it is a corruption of the bondage mechanism that cements a marriage between the sexes if one uses it instead to cement a relationship between the same sex... the bible than explains that homosexuality is unnatural , and my understanding of that is that it simply cannot lead to procreation , yet it uses the 'reward' mechanism of sexual activity , albeit it sodomy since men's bodies have no natural way of performing the actual sex act ... the body releases hormones at ejaculation that give a reward , natural drugs, but they are meant to bond man to woman for a stable marriage , not man to man or woman to woman for an unproductive unnatural union...

That is far from saying that brotherly love feelings cannot be between those of homosexual tendency, many people go through feelings of homosexuality at some stage in their life ... the problem only arises when it is turned into a homosexual act like sodomy ... because that causes inappropriate bondage which then often excludes natural bonding with the opposite sex toward procreation... and of course abuse of the anus [designed only for voiding waste digested or undigested food] for sodomy leads to many diseases being propagated in the world , another point made in scripture, by Paul

That is not to say that God has no purpose in homosexuality, as in all sin, but the purpose is to show that it fails to lead to perfect love...

There would then be no problem with a homosexual saint ,since he would never act on his homosexuality, turning it into homosexual acts ... indeed when one looks at the problems people have with the power of homosexuality ,one begins to see why there are so few saints in this world, very few manage to contain their thoughts and not commit sodomy or other unnatural homosexual acts ... it is thus a very difficult subject for many to discuss , most have not even studied the scripture to find its answers , still less asked God with an open mind [as a little child] what He says about it....

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Again then, the sin is Israel is more serious to God because Israel's purpose in this life for God is to become His perfect priesthood.... He has thus to remove those who fall away... they could leave Israel quite legitimately if they must sin, but if they remained in Israel under the old covenant they had agreed with, then they were killed when discovered because they had broken an agreement with God and had agreed the cost of doing so beforehand ...

It does show however that it is the act which is an abomination to God , I know a few men who are homosexually 'inclined', they never even think of a woman sexually, but they reject the acts of homosexuality and live as eunuchs, celibate, and manage to redirect their lusts into brotherly love without the unnatural acts ... clearly that does not work for most homosexuals, but equally those nwho sin inevitably reap the consequences, as Paul points out :-
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1Cor 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

It is a hrd topic to discuss with many people , because so many in our society have so many 'hang-ups' and it is an emotional issue ... few will accept God's view in this life anyway ... so what point putting it to most?

stranger · #33 30th October 2007, 12:14 PM

Well what I have never understood is how Jesus changed these eternal laws (Deuteronomy 32.) In Luke 6 he did, in Sermon on the Mount he mentioned different verses and totally contradicted them with new ways. For example.. When it came to divorce. He totally changed the message. Or eye for an eye. Why did he change the laws!!!!

Note that when challenged by the scribes and rabbis, Jesus does not duck their questions, but answers them ... this answer [below] is relevant here , Jesus points out that the law of God from the beginning is different from what is Given by Moses because Moses had to deal with the intransigence of Israel ... the laws in Israel under the old testament are partly about breaking this intransigence then, they are specific to Israel at that time ... they are not 'eternal' laws because the old covenant never was intended to be obeyed by more than a very few ... whilst it is never ceases , God siad that Israel as a whole would break it and even in the OT the need thus for a new covenant is described [but curiously enough , it is ignored by most Jews ,despite it being part of 'the Prophets' - Jer 31:31-34]

Simply consider what it takes to keep so many people together whilst they wander forty years , part-starved , in the desert wilderness...

Th old covenant is sufficient to cope with the problems of that life for a people of the Bronze Age... the rules have to be something they can cope with, that lead them eventually to accept a better way , For as Peter says of those who continue in sin after spirit baptism :-

2Pet 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

God deals more cautiously with Israel then, not because of themselves, but because of His purpose in them , they are led to much through their breaking of the old covenant, it brings humility on them , and so even [a few of the] Jews , with their almost desperate fanatical dissection of every word of the scriptures, may come to see son that Moses had to write things for political reasons , so that they would accept the package deal of the old covenant.... it is then a means t an end, not the original law, not the finished product [which cannot be written, but is conveyed by the spirit of God Himself, the Comforter , that Israel missed out on until Jesus died]

Ecclesiastes 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Lamentations 1:9 Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself.

Note that God has grown weary of Israel's sin long before Jesus arrives ,and rejected them for breaking the old covenant ... how do men then now hope somehow to keep it when it was kept by so very few in the past ?

Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Malachi 2:1 1 ¶ And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Note that all the rabbis of Israel who presume to interpret the law in place of God fall under this category because they are the descendants of Levi who did not leave Judaism behind when the House of Israel departed into idolatry taking half the tribe of Levi with them ...

With no spirit comforter yet, to convey to them the law which can only be expressed spiritually , what was expedient to set as the rules for Israel in the desert never could contain the law of God, but was necessary as an expedience only ... As God pointed out, they would not keep it ,even though they accepted the 'curse' on them for not doing so... the purpose of the old covenant is then really a lesson about creeds , that no creed can contain the spirit in the limited words we know today , a lesson not learned by modern sinner 'christians' , who yet again think they can manipulate words to mysteriously 'make' themselves 'saved' without having to give up their unlovingnesses [sin, iniquity] completely....

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither canhe know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

The old covenant led a few men to obey the law of love of God , but to most it was just a ritual which they went through the motions of , and were still unloving whenever it suited them or the law did not cover that particular unlovingness... having a 'recipe book' for life in a creed would work if one could write down every possible situation and say what is loving and what is not, but one cannot do it.... the Jews have certainly tried immensely hard and revealed many unlovingnesses that they put right, but it is as if they tried too hard and missed out some unloving things that they thus continue to do under their law... the unloving mistakes persist too , because they regard the law as authority, not the love which is God...

Jesus thus summarises the law of God as love of God and thus love of men [even one's 'enemies and those who use one] , but endorses the ten commandments [bar the keeping of sabbath because it is given only to Israel as a sign ... but note that he spends the sabbaths in the synagogues keeping the sabbaths , and keeps the annual sabbaths, even correcting the Jewish rabbis who keep the passover on the wrong day...

Jesus was thus simply pointing out that love [in his sense of the word, which he explains somewhat] is the law of God, and the written law cannot express it wholly, love is above what is written so that even David eating the holy bread in the temple is blameless

Matthew 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

It is hard, nay impossible, for men to understand from words then, but they are given as stopgap until the spirit is given to all men [Joel 2:28] so that all men know by the spirit all truth of God as the few saints know it in this life [John 16:13]

Solomon wryly [as usual for him ] explains the mistake :-

Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Good or evil is the determinant of love and is witnessed to us by our consciences .... most men cannot follow their consciences , and indeed God's plan would not follow its prophesied course if they could... words have much to do with this, but in the end words are no use at all to the spirit, they only point at things of this world which will end ...

The end is oneness with God that Jesus said can only be attained by love [without any unlovingness, with no sin] in obedience to his command as lord of the saints of this world and the next ...

It is thus ironic really [or sad if one sees it differently] that both Jews and sinner 'christians' try to wring a way to live in love out of processing words , when scripture says and shows that it cannot be done, that it is at best something to do with one's vain life :-

Ecclesiastes 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

It matters not how much all the saints and prophets say it, men cannot hear until God baptises them, and so it comes back to when that will be , which scripture shows us, but most men will again not accept ,because of their traditions of belief in mere words , even in Philosophy of the more intelligent amongst us :-

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Again then the irony that the bible can only be fully understood by the few saints of this life who have no real need of it because they are given all truth during this life by God Himself {John 16:13] and thus do not teach each other because they know from God :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. [Jesus]

If one could see it one would see how empty is the religion of almost all men... and yet if one saw it, one would also see that all men still work toward the proof not only that perfect love results in 'translation to spirit' , final freedom from mortality and the 'keys to the third heaven' ,the garden, paradise, final rest ... but that everyone who is not a saints is proving that no other way works by their failure which brings all humility to accept Jesus' way of love in the end [Revelation 5:13]

Thus my argument with god that if I could explain His scriptures then His plan would come about more quickly.... It seemed to amuse Him to let me try [LOL?]
and I haven't quite given up yet, and He is laughing at me loud by now , but in friendly manner that He sees I must learn the hard way... it is Ok by Him that anyone learns by as hard a way as is necessary, [none harder than Satan's way though...]

Ok, lets see if you see anything in that, don't forget to spend some time with Him just listening without your own thoughts getting in the way, genuine listening! ... PM me if you have some thoughts

Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

stranger · #34 30th October 2007, 02:08 PM

Jews have a thing called Parsha.. And with Parsha, Jews read the entire Torah in one year.

They also have many other readings in the Synagogue.. Not all of the Tanakh is read.. But..
1. Jews have an obligation to follow it anyways. Although the Rabbi is very important, one should read the entire Tanakh and not just Synagogue readings. Every Jew knows this.

2. Jews have certain things they teach. Most on charity and such comes from Prophets like Isaiah, 12 minor, etc. They follow those but do not read them all at the Synagogue.

As I tried to point it out, it is what they refuse to teach in the Prophets that is 'rather telling'.... it is just the same with christianity, the scripture that they ignore is the word of God that condemns them [to death as the only answer left for their sin of not being holy and yet pretending they are fit to teach as if they were God ... what they do not read out is far more telling than what they do read out , inevitably so really, if you think about it .. else why would these sinner 'teachers' of men leave it out ? ...eh? ]

God never set sinners to teach men , Even St Paul sent to teach sinners [not saints] was a saint, not any longer a sinner , although as he says he was the worst of sinners , actually slaughtering many of the Hebrew saints in his time as a sinner...

God warned Israel that they really would regret requiring a man as king over them in place of Him ... when the kingship of the House of Israel ended they ceased to be a people at all , joined other nations , worshipping their pagan gods... but the Jews instead, having lost their last king before Jesus takes over chose to be led by the rabbis ... that was not a good move either from the point of view of getting any closer to God , power just corrupted the rabbis and they made all manner of laws from themselves , whole books full of laws about almost everything , but missing the law of love out ... not that much of their law is not loving, just that it is not the complete law of love of God [nor could be because it is in words, not spirit) and is not even all loving to God [as His commandment to them] , rabbis having changed things for Jews which God has said were set by Him for all time, even the very sign that He is their God , even to choosing a man to lead them in place of Him...

So they leave out all the criticism of the rabbis by the prophets in teaching in the synagogues... it is seriously unsurprising really ...

So how do they ignore Jer 31:31-34 ? - I find it 'astonishing' that God makes a new covenant with them alone and they ignore it and still try to make the old one work [with omissions because they have no temple, no high priest !] which God says failed them and has rejected them for breaking ... there is a time for coming to see it , seemingly soon, when the remnant of the House of Israel emerges and some Jews see what it is saying about their still-awaited messiah, because it fits not only what they do read in Torah and the Prophets, but also what they refuse to acknowledge of the Prophets...

Ecc 3:1 ¶ To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
...
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

stranger · #35 30th October 2007, 03:28 PM

Indeed , the scripture is truly awesome, and curiously contains much knowledge which most Jews never get around to acknowledging ... which is perhaps why Moses tells them they will get 'awakened' by becoming jealous of their own Torah being expounded to them about 'their' Messiah by a strange nation who do not even speak Hebrew

Where does Moshe say such? Also, I adhere to the Documentary Hypothesis, and do not really hold that Moshe wrote anything.

Deuteronomy 32:21 ... I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isaiah 28:9 9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I doesn't actually matter so much who wrote it down , what is significant to my point is only what it says and other prophets say which I began explaining from the scripture

So why bother with this ,perhaps inessential ,point and ignore the scriptures I pointed out?

If you doubt what is written that is a different matter, Paul confirms it's validity :-

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
...
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And the points fits the rest of scripture exactly, those who ceased to be a people do emerge ,forgiven now [see the new covenant] as the people of God although their fathers were rejected [Heb 8:8-9] as the royal priesthood, priesthood ruling in the kingdom of God spoken of by God to Moses and Israel [Exodus 19:6, 1Pet 2:9-10]

The Jews never have ceased to be a people [because of Judaism], so we know this refers to the House of Israel, whom Jews still are reluctant to even acknowledge as Israelites, let alone discuss their role in scripture in being the ones who bring the Jews back in line by understanding that the rabbis had the Messiah killed by lying about him [ouch ...!!!] because he had the power to move the masses of the Jews and showed they were mistaken ...[ouch ...!!!]

stranger · #36 30th October 2007, 03:49 PM

I am still not sure about this 144,000 thing yet.

First note Enoch's statement [in Enoch 1, but also recorded by Jude below]:-

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

Despite the countless attacks on this scripture, the original Hebrew is the singe word for 'ten thousand' , it is not ambiguous, it really does mean only tens of thousands [i.e. between 20,000 and 199,999] just as is the 144,000 mentioned by Jesus in his revelation from God in three places :-

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
...
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The number is not symbolic then, but literal, Jesus explaining it as 12,000 only from each of but twelve of the tribes of Israel [excluding the names of Dan and Ephraim]

Moses is the only other one to have mentioned tens of thousands [literally] of saints :-

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

The interesting aspect to this is that God rejected both the House of Israel and the Jews for not being saints under their old covenant with Him , redeeming only a very few 'friends of God' , one from every seventh generation , before Jesus begins the creation of many more, tens of thousands by God's holy spirit, the comforter come at last to Israel....

stranger · #37 31st October 2007, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by KCDAD

To sum up... man was not formed from the dust or dirt on the 6th day of creation in the Garden of Eden (or anywhere else). Did I get that right?

Good question :-

the 'garden' is where the tree of life [immortality of the spirit] is , which we also find referred to as the paradise of God , and as the third heaven...

So we see Adam being TAKEN there in scripture and being cast into the earth to physical toil ... the garden is not physical then, but simply refers to being 'in the spirit' ... temporarily in death, permanently available to those who are translated having perfected their love on earth as men....

Man is craeted not in the image men have of men, but in the image of God... but god is spirit, not a man, not flesh and bones...

The reality of created man is that our spirit.... examining our 'heart of desire' we find the urge of the spirit within us is to love and be loved...

the perfection of love then is not simply the only way back to freedom of the spirit [even to manifest as the 'angels' ,messengers serving God's purpose in this world]... but is the expression of what we really are , that of us which is of God :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The 'soul' ,or life ,of the body is thus only a transient thing , one might say almost like a 'dream' by the spirit, an 'illusion' of reality of time-space to the spirit which is time-less , beyond what we see as physical reality from apparently inside the illusion ...

What then [to the spirit] is the 'creation' of a man but perhaps comparable to our creating a virtual reality and placing a hero or a 'baddy' in it and letting it run...

What then is the 6th day of creation to the timeless spirit? Word for our understanding?

How can we understand the first day when the sun has not been created to make a day , how does the earth exist without the sun?

These then are not 'days' in the normal sense we use the word , this is not creation of the earth in any way our Physics understands that the earth could be created... we know then that it is either myth [as some claim] or that we shall understand it one day in terms of what it symbolises...

God sets the night ruled by the moon [lesser luminary, 'Lucifer', Satan] as the symbol of this earth in darkness of evil because of men being unable to escape sin [God will not baptise but his few for now, for this life] ...

Again God sets the day, light, to symbolise what is good, the righteous new earth and the kingdom of god with Jesus ruling and redeemed Israel serving as a nation of priests at last[Exodus 19:6] and serving the mass redemption of the gentiles [Rev 7:9-10] who were sinners to death, perfected in llove, unsanctified, unjustified in this world, but saints in the new earth [2 Peter 3:13]

That then is but one 'day' to God one 'night' of this earth under Satan [rev 13:3-7], one 'daytime' of light in the new earth

What then do the days in Genesis represent ? [if anything?]

We know what the seventh day represents, the sabbath given to Israel as a sign , but representing final rest in God , the third heaven, the paradise of God, the garden, immortality...

Is this earth and the new earth then just the sixth 'day' ... after which is the third heaven with no earth

The other 'days' then referring to things that happened before mankind [as men of science point out the evidence ,even occurred here before mankind even existed here]

As far as I am concerned it is a work of understanding in progress, as a sinner i cannot expect baptism of the spirit in this life to know all truth [John 16:13] as the few saints of Israel receive ... maybe it will come, likely not,[ it matters not what we are as flesh for sake of God's purpose here -Romans 14:7-9]

the mistake [for me] would be to say what I believe before understanding the whole scripture , a mistake I believe most people make ...how can one really believe what one does not understand?

To say that the body is physical , using the mostly exact, but likely somewhat poetic phrase that our bodies are made from the physical, the 'dust' of the earth, seems the least hard part to understand , what we have no model of is the other aspect of our 'creation', that the body is dead without the spirit , something non-physical that moves us to act, to do, to not be dead...

mankind actually knows something of the physical world, we know that we are killing the very ecosystem on which our lives depend as far as we know in physical sense, we know that we want to love and be loved, but we do not do love... we are a paradox then, we are killing our known means to live on this planet, are some half way to succeeding in this curious plan, and we really deeply want to love, but we don't do it... whaaatttt????

We cannot explain this bizarre property of human beings within our knowledge, it is insane, contradictory, paradox, irrational; nonsensical... yet it is there, we think it is real...

clearly we are mistaken then, something outside what we know as physical reality causes this insanity in almost all men... and why are there a few exceptions?

The scripture offers the explanation [2Thess 2] in terms we can perhaps come to understand , but if we accept it then we also have to see that this 'God' outside our control uses mankind for His purpose, and only seeks our agreement that it was all for 'good' at the end, in the meantime everyone will suffer just so God can have know [that is somehow time-lessly 'know', God is not trapped in time as we may believe we are] that evil does not work too well, it destroys quickly and has no long-term 'sustainability' , it ends ...]

Is life as we know it then just God's 'thought' about what it would be like to not be 'perfect' , not be spirit, but be bound in time and space... are we just God as-it-were experiencing what He cannot do so as himself, spirit ... ?

One is forced to go beyond the 'comfort zone' of what men think they know [but it is conditional knowledge, it depends upon assumptions which are simply acts of faith, plausible, but not facts] ... when one meets the paradox of mankind, the only creature that lives all its life in denial of what it thinks it is, even of what it most desired to be, love, then one has to go beyond , or wait for the answer to come.... God also promises in scripture all truth to all men... clearly not in this life for most who already died though...

stranger · #38 2nd November 2007, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Jeremy_the_Atheist
When it comes to god, I'll tell you straight out that my biggest problem is that I honestly have no idea whatsoever as to what the hell people are talking about.

A 'god' is that which one respects most, believes in most, even worships...

thus 'the God' would have to be something everyone believes in, respects most as 'good'...

I have been looking for a very long time and never found anyone who thinks love is bad [but then men are capable of great denial of their desires, even of the desire to love (and be loved) which seems to be the deepest desire in all men]

Thus the scriptural description of what God is to us, appears to me to correspond to my observations in the world... also my desire to love is the only thing that never left me, even through deepest depression, I have then faith in love even though I am a sinner in failing to love all the time...

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
...
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Jesus showed us what perfect love is like, that love can be enabled by God in us [as His choice , not ours] by His own spirit ['spirit baptism'] and perfected in trial ['baptism of fire'] leading to return to the freedom of the spirit [beyond mortality] ...

His love he said showed us the Father, what God is like ...

John 8:19 ... if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

I mean, what the hell is god? Is it some ultra-powerful alien?

Not an alien ..., since when we are loving 'God is dwelling in us' , moving us to know Him , and what we do as love we feel it is what we are , not something alien to us ... we are of God and return to God, we are not this body which simply gets recycled by the earth when we die :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The reality for us is ultimately the spirit then, not the body ... our bodies are just a 'temporary, and temporal, uncomfortable stop-off ...

Luke 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Man is made in the image of God , spirit, not a god made in the image of a man as in much religion , even modern christianity...

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

Does the universe itself have an intelligent consciousness?

Not the 'universe', not the physical ... the 'universe' we have perceived is space-time , whereas God is time-less.... God is the creator of the universe, He created what we see as time, He created what we see as space ... God did not create Himself , He has no time, no change, no beginning , no end... the spirit simply is BEING and is beyond space and time, that which can make and destroy universes

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
...
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Is it some kind of cosmic giant in a higher, greater dimensional universe (what ever that means?)

Just what are spirits? Why are they invisible?

Every time I try to get some sort of idea of what these things mean, people give me explainations that make no sense at all to me.

God is not limited to the physical , but independent of it , independent of this universe and the next one....

thus immortality of the spirit [tree of 'life'] is described as being the 'garden' , as being 'paradise' , as being the final rest, as being the third heaven where there is no earth, no physical , no time, no space ...

So I look around at the world around me and see just about everyone believing in something that I have no idea what it is and appear to be nonsense to me.

Yes, we seek to 'understand' by building 'models' from things we already know ... but what we see of God is love , Jesus explains that love is the 'model' of God for our understanding, not some image of a 'big man in the sky' , not an alien but the very essence of what we are, and value most , desiring to love and be loved ... and we would be that love but for our capacity for denial ... but denial does not go on indefinitely, eventually our 'selves' , the thing we appear to be in space and time, all yield back to love :-

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [in death!] , but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

And I ask myself, "How can all these people not realize that it doesn't make any sense? Why are so many people so mistaken?"

Eventually all men are brought to understand all truth , then it will make sense , it is however necessary for the purpose in THIS earth that men do not most understand yet ... thus most men , even most in religion , are strongly deluded in what we believe by God for the very purpose behind the illusion that what we are is not love, but our limited physical 'selves' [Joel 2:28, John 16:13, 2Thess 2]

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Obviously most men are not going to accept this yet , especially those in religion ... nor are they meant to

Rev 13:3 ... and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon

But God's 'pleasure' is to do His will and save all men from dependence to the physical, from mortality.... [yet in immortality one is changed , not a 'self' , but part of the one spirit , integrally ONE with God , or rather whole since there is nothing 'else' in the spirit]

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This can sometimes be stressful because sometimes, I have to wonder if maybe it's me who just doesn't get it.

It isn't ... God requires that almost all do not 'get it' in this life ... as Jesus says , only 144,000 are redeemed first to spirit at his return [Rev 7:3-4]

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
...
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

God explains why in 2Thess 2, but few understand what Paul is writing here... one can ask God for understanding of it though, who knows what is your future understanding in this life... you already asked the right questions instead of going along with the delusion of creedal religion of sinners... perhaps you will be one of the few [about one in a million, whom God informs now, in this world... but realise that if one knows then the world will reject one... ]

So I sometimes come on this board trying to see if someone can put it into terms that I can understand. No one ever does though and I often get the impression that people themselves don't understand what they are talking about. It fuels my skepticism but I'm also baffled that the other person thinks it does make sense.

Be re-assured then that most people do pretend ,even to themselves, that creedal religion of sinners makes sense ... equally be aware that you cannot teach anyone God's truth about our destiny to all return to he spirit and be one with God whom we know now only as the love we sometimes see in ourselves and others in this world...

Religionist creedalists are NOT consistent with all the scripture although they pretend that they believe it all.. that is something one can check for oneself... the best place for getting to know one's self, and God is alone with Him, without the thoughts one has from the world ... it is loosely called 'meditation', simply ceasing a while from thought to listen to what we really are ... then one begins to recognise what those who wrote the scripture are saying , that they knew what they are and what they will be...

If god is real, I would like to know it but first, I got to understand what 'god' is. I don't even know how to evaluate evidence for his existence until I know what it is I'm looking for.

What we know of God is the love we would to be , to love and be loved... thus ,in meditation one's barriers of mind set by the world are removed and one discovers the love one would be [and how far from it the self is... one begins to see what living paradox a man is, why we have no rest because we are living in conflict with the love we want to be... man is all about denial in this world, but it is required of us by God... just for a 'while' as -it-were ....maybe even through death, as many have of course died without knowing all truth as promised by Jesus to all his followers (John 16:13) ... clearly most 'christians' are sinners, do not follow Jesus in perfecting love and trial f this love... again the hypocrisy is required, you will come to see why if you persist in seeking the truth from God, just by yearning to know it... even that yearning is only there through God... we are not independent of our spirit !

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Does anyone ever feel this way?

Yes, I have felt very much as you do, it is a fairly long trip abck to the complete freedom of the spirit from our mortality , and one few yet even begin to understand, as indeed the bible explains why... the thing is that one does not need to listen to it, indeed most must not do so [2Thess 2, Matt 7, Isaiah14, Ezek 28 , ... ]

Be interested then that you are moved to ask questions that other men do not even see... know that they will not necessarily see even if you find part of the answer, and they may well hate you if you even try to tell them... come to see why this must be so

I don't often [understatement! ] recommend people read 'Philosophy' , but this might possibly help your self in your current mindset... feel free of course to ignore me and this writing by Spinoza , and indeed all the bible , if you are moved to do so... follow your spirit, where you are moved to go...

Be aware that most people misunderstand Spinoza since very little agreement on what he meant exists... Shopenhauer interestingly states that he believes that Spinoza is a saint ... creedal religion of course rejected him completely without even understanding what he said , because he rather comprehensively proved religion of men's tradition is false...

"Since all that happens radiates from the common core, everything hangs together as part of the coherent whole which just is 'god 'or 'nature' in itself."

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/4h.htm#god

stranger · #39 2nd November 2007, 03:57 PM

Finite , thus limited, [thus not free] individuals interacting with each other, cannot themselves be free [unlimited]; we ,as apparently individual selves ,can then be nothing more than the modifications of a self-caused, free-ness [that we know of only in 'Love' , not in creedal (finite, limited) religion]

stranger · #40 7th November 2007, 06:28 PM

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Do people continue to sin after spirit baptism then , all the way to their death, as most 'christians' do ?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

We thus find that the teachings of ALL divided creedal churches are mistaken, that Jesus will not take ANY who are still sinners by his return [or who died sinners before that] :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It explains the division of modern christianity , which shows of course that modern religion simply cannot be the one truth of God...

Jesus confirms what logic demonstrates :-

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

The worst aspect of this is then the disappointment of a billion and more 'christian' sinners who have been told by sinners that they are 'saved' [in exchange for modest regular payments] , for when Jesus returns he will only take those he has said he will Rev 7:3-8 and the many will be redeemed later Rev 7:9-10

Matthew makes the point that all modern sinner christians are taught to ignore, in chap 7. that only FEW find the narrow strait way in this life [of being saints of the congregation of God now]

But of course Jesus points out that the MANY [who go by the broad way ] are saved too, just later -Rev 7:9-10

it is clear in scripture that all the churches of sinners led by sinners are mistaken then according to scripture, the many who go by the broad way are saved according to Jesus...

The sinners then who teach otherwise to a billion 'chhrsitian' sinners are simply wrong according to Jesus...

who does one believe then Jesus or the sinners who run big churches ?