The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Bible [or 'some sinners have learned how to read']

stranger · #21 26th October 2007, 10:13 AM

Sin is not love ...

Looking for a universally agreed basis of what 'god' is , we only find that 'god' is 'love' ...

Looking for a common denominator of ALL christians we find belief in the God of love and His scripture ...

Thus the problem of divided christianity that reflects disastrously in the structure and running of this site is that men do not yet uniquely understand God's word , whereas God 's word states that it is not of ANY of the private interpretations men put upon it without understanding it completely, as a whole :-

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

We could thus start reproving our beliefs to take account of all the scripture, because Jews often tend to ignore the NT [even MJ] and 'christians' tend to ignore the OT ... much can be resolved and reproved by seeing that the OT is not only about the old covenant , but about prophecy of the future and the new covenant of grace [Jer 31:31-34] ... and that the NT is about the Messiah of Israel , long-awaited and still awaited by many Jews ...

The scripture as whole makes clear the role of Israel ,that they were rejected , but are now to be accepted back by God because He has put His name on them, it also explains the role of apostate divided christianity which christians know about , but turn it into dispute instead of coming to reprove their OWN beliefs to the one truth scripture asserts it represents uniquely

The beginning step in this is to accept the definition of a CHRISTIAN set by God, not the one invented one this site following a much later tradition than the saints who wrote the NT ... te earlier definition is both more in line with scripture and resolves all the conflict of the current situation in christianity, division of belief which shows almost everyone must be wrong ... the answwer is reproof to scripture then, so everyone is moving toward the beliefs set down by God, not what has transpired since as sinners invent doctrine after doctrine to divide men [when God offers the spirit of truth to unite men]

Here then is the definition by God of what a christian really is :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

It must be clear to all that most who say they are 'christians' do not depart from iniquity , most even have died still sinners, still not obeying Jesus' command to love ...

But that is the very point , given all truth of God as promised by Jesus [John 16:13] one would be able to resist all Satan's temptations and love continually ... that then is the very purpose and reason why the trial of faith is precious , it tests if one has understood all truth from the spirit and so has departed from sinning , perfected one's love ...

It is simple to see that sin is simply unlovingness, breaking Jesus law of love, his commandment as lord to love ...

Jesus backs this up very strongly indeed by saying that he never even knew those who will still be sinners by the time of his return, and he certainly will not take any who have not departed from sin and so perfected their love [what John the baptist calls 'baptism of fire' the testing of faith given by God with his spirit of truth]

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It makes sense to take these words of Jesus and the saints seriously, not to water them down and discount them because most men find it impossible to stop sinning...

St Paul was sent as apostle to the gentiles who are sinners till death, there is then a role for teaching the gentiles the truth of scripture ... it simply does not matter that all the first 144,000 are saints of tribal Israel [Rev 7:3-8] because they are only first since God requires the perfect priesthood readied first , the many [who as we know go by the broad way] are saved afterward according to Jesus [Rev 7:9-10], what matters it to men if God does things in order, not saving all at the same time?

The site then will hardly be for saints unless they come to teach the gentiles the truth, but from Jesus' numbering there can only be about two thousand saints alive at any one time, scattered worldwide now the seven churches of God lie in ruins with no congregation of saints there any longer ... rather the site should perhaps accept that sinners are not YET fully christians because they do not obey Jesus as lord, cannot do so until after spirit baptism because of Satan... then we shall stop all trying to prove pet theories right and simply all aim to understand how scripture shows that god will overcome our sin in good timing of His written plan, not by our wishful thinking that we must be first necessarily... we know we are not baptised of the spirit if we are still sinners not knowing all truth of God [John 16:13]

We may be on the way to spirit baptism, who can tell whom God will atke first, but wgat does it matter if God elects us to be second, ... or third for that matter ...

he site should not pander to sinners in its structure, but follow the scripture ... that means ditching the man-concocted bureaucratic rules and substituting scripture as the authoritative law here ... love being the only acceptable interaction to aim for, and people being LED toward it by the site, not punished ,often unjustly and in Draconian manner, on the basis of the only limited judgement of other sinners ... Jesus warned against this sin against fellow men, we are not up to judging each other, harming ourselves by pretending we can... and the site is wrong to tempt people to do so... even the power of mods corrupts them often to do unloving acts in the name of the site... it simply is not fair to tempt people to use powers of judgement they do not have until they are without sin themselves... the site continually does injustice and censorship , it is not love ,a dn has n place here if we are even aiming to be christians...

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid.How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

stranger · #22 27th October 2007, 09:53 AM

Nature perfected many ‘bioengineering’ solutions long before men came on the scene … one could do well by simply noticing the methods it uses that have been proven over aeons to work …
Microscopic phytotplankton species expend substantial parts of their very limited energy budget making dimethyl sulphide which simply escapes from them and passes up into the atmosphere, creating sulphate aerosols as it breaks down with hydroxl radicals and ozone …
Why do they expend energy on this wasteful loss of energy and resources , obviously it is not an intelligent act, they have no brain, but rather it could be seen as a mechanism that evolved as-it-were by chance , a system that endures ad thus has shown that it works , by which they make the storms which interestingly whisk them up from the ocean and spread them worldwide … are they are simply ‘buying’ a transport mechanism then? It appears from paleo-science that there is more to it than that, the clouds that they generate as a control mechanism on the earth’s temperature, this is yet another feedback mechanism for survival of all life on the planet and has been working for aeons of time, right back to the earliest life here… the planet was made more hospitable to life by life itself, geo-engineering on grand scale by the tiniest of plants in the sea… which outstrips the cleverest of plans by humans to geo-engineer and more relevantly does no harm to the planet …
One only has to cite that CO2 from human greed in exploiting buried animals and plants being recycled [oil and coal] -over a criminally short period of time without gaining anything much in sense or future sustainable energy from the massive resource- this which we see as waste could so easily be turned back into living biomass by nature , nature has such massive power to expand and cope with our problem if only we would let it, even help it , rather than standing by and letting it die out and make things worse as the dying seas yield up even more CO2 and methane and much more besides…
Simply put, we NEED the seas that we are currently almost half way to killing [half of coral reefs already dead or severely damaged and dying , phytoplankton unable to make their defensive carbonate ’shells’ because of CO2 acidification of the oceans … these are the base feed of most life in the oceans, fisheries are failing because their food is being killed by us, and we are of course next in line to starve… it makes little sense since we know all this …]
We still have a tiny window of time in which to expand life in the seas , The very safest place to sequestrate our CO2 that nature is used to handling in recycling … and we can harvest the seas again as they become productive, we CAN farm then responsibly as they expand from being dead … [most of the ocean is dead , but from lack of only micro-nutriment , it takes less to bring it to life than the land , but nature has never found the way for most of the sea .. only patches of it and in dynamic moving fashion with only some more lasting areas [sea upwellings of deep water for instance]
Instead the current dozen projects on ‘the geritol solution’ simply waste their [and our!] very limited time window on dumping 100 times more iron than is needed into the sea with even more acid to get a simple algal bloom , some of which [at worst it seems only 1%] falls to the bottom when the whole lot dies…. it is insanely short-sighted, dangerous, and inefficient, when a hundredth of the same iron, slowly increased in the ocean would cause the existing ecosystem to expand naturally and take up many times the amount of Co2 and store it as increased biomass , all recyclable by nature and a massive carbon sink - with only the minutest help from mankind of supplying a miniscule amount of iron which nature nevertheless never has managed to prevent from precipitating out in sea-water and sinking to the depths … despite many creatures that slow the process down to a crawl , just not quite slowly enough though to let much of the oceans come alive … only man can do that, to save the oceans from mankind and for mankind …
We have such a small time window, and we really are clever enough to put this together and get it right first time as is now seemingly required if we are to be prudent and aim NOT at brinkmanship in pushing the planet to the limits it can bear, but to maximise the chance of survival of most life on which we depend …
There is casual talk of ‘ONLY’ 50% of species dying out with our latest plans to limit our behaviour … if one killed even 10% of species on the planet it would ensure our eventual death and the death of most life here eventually, because essential nutriments , most elements of chemistry, are recycled by various species… the whole only works as a whole,…
One cannot cut out a man’s liver and say he has only lost a small percentage of his body, he will live… he will live for a whole, but he will surely die soon …
the planet is no different, different species do the work of recycling all the elements so the whole works… the whole will die quickly if even a few ‘key’ species are lost ,and their life in turn depends on other species … we just cannot afford to do what we are doing, we know it, yet are not putting it together fast enough, the window of opportunity is closing fast and faster with time, the feedbacks are vicious already against us and getting more so…
nature is the biggest force we have to help us and she needs a little help because she just doesn’t operate as quickly as the problem we have throw against her, it is killing her and thus will kill us , because she feeds us too … we do not live on money or oil, but on food … we cannot afford to kill more species and yet we are talking about our most ambitious plans doing just that … we are going the wrong way with inadequate plans that do not take account of all we know, and we do seriously not have time for this mistake …
We have no moral right not to put right the mess we made of the planet already by being greedy and lazy and complacent … we owe that to nature … she needs our help because the problem is too large without our help to solve one small problem she never mastered which we now understand and can help her with so she can clear up our mess and save us too …

stranger · #23 27th October 2007, 03:55 PM

The only one that isn't is the congregation of saints, and they no longer have a place to congregate ,ever since the seven churches of God were razed to the ground and Rome took over the name of 'christianity' for their paganised religion run by hierarchies of sinners as priests , not saints ... with hewn altars and idols and changed rituals and altered times and days ... they even crucified St Peter and then pretended he gave them powers which Jesus specifically denied any disciple [saying he is the ONLY head of his congregation of saints] ... it was devastation of the early christian saints, many were fed to lions to amuse the new Roman 'christians' , many were crucified for disobeying the emperor for simply keeping holy sabbath of God... 'chrstianity has attempted reformations from time to time, but never reproved itself wholly to the whole holy scripture of God , always tending to try to ignore that God 's people are Israel, and whilst BOTH Houses [kingdoms] were rejected by the old covenant they broke, they are now accepted under a new covenant , which St Paul states is with those whose fathers broke th old one [Heb 8:8-9]

Grace then is given only to the yet-divided children of the two kingdoms of Israel , the House of Judah [Jews , keeping Judaism] and the paganised idolatous House of Israel [lost and living as gentile scattered amongst the gentiles ... where Jesus said he was sent to reach them ALONE -

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Thus Jesus lists the firstfruit saints of tribal Israel by order of descent from sons of Jacob, the tribes of ancient Israel [Rev 7:3-8]

This then is the congregation of saints, the holy priesthood of the kingdom of God as promised by God and recorded by Moses [Exodus 19:6]

the remainder of Israel [many already dead as sinners in disbelief] and the masses of the gentiles are thus never even offered grace in scripture and all die sinners , to be resurrected at the second resurrection in the new earth kingdom... but many live righteously there, being served by the perfect priesthood of the order of Melchizedek , the sons of God who were the children of Jacob[Israel], God's only 'church' that ministers to billions in the new earth so countless many are saved, but long after the few firstfruits [Rev 7:9-10]

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I know that mine isn't.

Can you prove that from scripture ... my proof above seems to indicate that you cannot, so please show me on what you make your claim?

and if all you are finding is church's that are full of sinners and the absence of God - maybe you are called to be the one to bring God back to that church.

As if God needed help?

EITHER WAY - Scripture tells us to gather in one PLACE and be in one accord. The Net - this SITE is not a place.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

hmmm... you did not quote that very well , in fact it was the early saints only who gathered in one place to receive the holy spirit ... Jesus alone for instance received it after water baptism... John the Baptist who was there did not...

If one received the holy spirit then one would know all truth and understand all prophecy long enough before death for precious trial of that given faith during life [baptism of fire, mentioned by John the Baptist] ... thus there are three baptisms needed before translation and so only the last one is the seal, when one attempts to give up sin completely and become a saint whist Satan does his utmost to persuade one to sin :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The congregation of God then all cease to sin, unlike the divided, thus apostate, churches full of sinners led by sinner priests in this world...

Also the congregation of saints ceased to congregate after they had expanded to form the seven churches of God , all the churches lie in ruins to this day, never seeing a congregation again after the saints were either killed or managed to scatter.... with only 144,000 saints for all the time between Jesus visit, there can only be some two thousand alive at any one time on average

Not only does it show that all large congregations simply cannot be of God, but are thus of the one in place of Christ ['antichristos' in Greek] ,but since the saints were sent by Jesus into ALL nations to find the descendants of the lost House of Israel scattered there at least a millenium earlier, up to three millenia today, then clearly they are all on their own now or just a couple here and there , there are so many places to have to go :-

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Clearly modern churches of sinners are not obeying Jesus, they are not looking for the lost house of Israel at all...

stranger · #24 27th October 2007, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by intricatic

What is love?

Have you forgotten already in this evil world ? ... your conscience did try to show you what is not love , so it is easy to know what is love if you listen for your conscience... it will stop you being unloving and so you will be loving ... else you will be sad later on when God is forced to tell one one has been unloving ...

Love too is what makes one feel more-than-just-alive , it is the Spirit of God toward 'life' that does never end ...

Love is what our hearts desire more than anything, it is what we also fear to do because the world frowns upon it , hates the witness in it of its own evil, its unloving grey ways ...

Love too is what we know of as God , what we can know of God, love is then the 'manifestation' of God within men :-

1 John 4:16 [KJV] And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Cor 13:4 [REB] ¶ Love, is patient, is gracious. Love, is not envious, vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Acteth not unbecomingly, seeketh not her own things, is not easily provoked, imputeth not that which is base,
6 Rejoiceth not over unrighteousness, but rejoiceth in sympathy with truth,—
7 All things, covereth, all things, believeth, all things, hopeth, all things, endureth.
8 ¶ Love, at no time, faileth;—but, whether prophesyings, they shall be done away, whether tongues, they shall cease, whether gaining knowledge, it shall be done away;

Love is the deepest desire within us [in our 'hearts' as we say] ,yet the one we are taught to ignore by the world we live in ...and we all become convinced not to follow our hearts because others who teach us have become that way .. because others that taught them have become that way .... it goes a long way back ...

Love is then the desire men have largely forgotten and so do not know the depth of lasting joy it brings to life ... men this know the greyness of unlovingness which might show them what love would be like, but somehow the connection is not often made , that without love one will die a grey death in one's empty pursuits in life, empty because they are not one's deepest desire to love...

The almost-silenced voice of conscience knows good of love from bad of unlovingness, but the self is the censorer... in an evil world the self fits in much better by silencing the conscience, so men 'live' greyly in denial o the deepest desire to love which is thus our spirit [imprisoned by the self]

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Love is our 'god' then because we desire it and respect it , some even' worship' it, but it is a god we deny , and worship 'gods' of this world instead... few bother to review whether their god is serving them well, preferring propaganda of church or government or their group whatever it may be they compromise love to fit in with...

Love then is freedom to BE one's truth , freedom from the world's false values to take on the values one was given expressed in one's conscience and moved through one's 'heart' of desire at it very deepest level...

Love is what we know of God, and most people have 'forgotten' , censored, God in this world, even in religion, perhaps especially in religion...

Love is not dead though, else so would we be... Love will not be wholly silenced in anyone , it is just that it is behind bars, out of fashion, hidden away as if unacceptable because this world does not recognise its value...

stranger · #25 28th October 2007, 10:48 AM

Does one believe in 'hell' ?

The question itself needs explaining first ... 'hell' is simply a rather poor translation into the [old] English word for a hole in the ground ['sheol' in Hebrew, 'hades' in Greek] ... these two original words do not mean a hole in the ground , nor do they correspond to Dante's fictional novel about an 'Inferno' , which captured 'chrsitian' imaginations so much that many people sadly believed it ,that hell is burning , and a place of torment of the dead!

'hell' in the Bible scripture is thus a very poor translation and a term which was given popular fictional belief by people believing what Dante wrote , despite that book having nothing to do with the scriptural 'hell' and that it was purely a fictional work

the 'hell' of scripture would perhaps better be translated as the 'unseen state' of a soul when the body is dead and the spirit has returned to God who gave it ...

God has said He will resurrect all , both just and unjust, that He has to keep track on what the life [soul] of any given body was like ... this 'memory' of the soul between one life and the next is the meaning behind the words translated 'hell'

it is thus absurd to talk about suffering in hell, one can get nowhere flogging a dead horse, it is as pointless to punish a dead man ... Solomon explains clearly :-

Quote:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 ... the dead know not any thing, ...
There is no sense of death in death at all no sense of passing time , no sense of anything that happens to the body in the grave or wherever one's 'dust' ends up ... and the spirit cannot suffer since it is of God and not physical , but spirit ...

The life of the body, it's soul, comes from the spirit animating the body... the soul is thus created , it is simply life beginning in a body... and when the spirit returns to God the body is dead, no life, no soul... but God will re-create the soul, so it has to be remembered what it was like...

Quote:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man
Quote:
became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death] shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; anddeath and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Thus I believe in what is translated poorly as 'hell' in many bible translations, but it is very different from what it is in the minds of most people when they use the word 'hell'

We would do well to find a better word for it then , calling it the 'unseen state of the memoy of life held b God to be able to restore life in resurrection' sems a bit clumsy , but it is more accurate to the scripture ... I cannot find a good word for it because people do ot understand it and so do not have a word for it ...

if one calls it 'unseen state' ,people misunderstand that a if it were a place ... perhaps the best one I came up with is that it is the 'memory of God of one's life, by which He promises to resurrect one in the new earth, if not before then , if one has died at all...

So I believe in a sort of a 'hell' , but it is nothing like what most people think of as hell, it is based only on what scripture says about 'hell' [which is substantial work to unravel ]

stranger · #26 28th October 2007, 12:16 PM

So why have men invented countless other 'priesthoods' to follow diverse beliefs invented by sinners , not the one truth of God , and filled these mock priesthoods with sinners claiming all manner of diverse beliefs which do not correspond with ALL the scripture ... scripture not even being accepting on their claim to be following Jesus as his priests because they are not of his only order of priests .

The only explanation of the worldwide phenomenon offered in scripture [by Jesus and Paul ] is the apostasy of the whole world in religion [Rev 13:3-8, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ] bar only the few who cease to sin , who find the strait narrow way of entering the royal priesthood of the order of Melchisedec ...

The requirement in scripture for those who actually follow sinless Jesus is to depart from sin , note that this is different even than the criterion used on which this very site , the basis of its structure which Erwin struggles to get right ,but still does not seek the answer given in scripture [below] , even here then men do not follow the saint's definition of all who are following Jesus truly by ceasing from all sin:-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Again to confirm in Jesus own words, all those still sinners by time of his return WILL be rejected even though they cry out 'Lord, lord!' ... because ,as he says, they do not obey him as lord, so he is not their lord, they do not love as he commanded, but sin repeatedly , not departing from iniquity like the few saints do :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

So there we have the explanation of divided religion when God's truth is but ONE truth , the countless priesthoods and hundreds of thousands of sinner priests of this world were NEVER known to Jesus, his own words ... because they continue in sin , do not become saints ...

St Paul underlines it too , and yet they ignore him as well as Jesus :-

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid.

How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

There is no excuse for this misunderstanding spread by over a billion people already as if it were the gospel , a false gospel that Jesus will take sinners to heaven , he has said he will not , he gas said that sinners CANNOT be his priests ... yet sinners dress up in robes and perform bizarre rituals that impress the many far more than the actual words of Jess and the saints in their bibles ...

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

The sheer division of religion right down to individual level should tell people absolutely that it cannot be the one truth of God ... why then do they not reprove their beliefs to those of Jesus and the saints, the very reason scripture was written for them :-

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Most people can read, and most people have access to some sort of bible ... yet they do not read it whilst still claiming to believe it... how can one truly claim to believe something one has not evfen read and understood FIRST ??

Clearly then most men trust their sinner priests, and yet the scripture shows the terrible cost of this mistake , they are almost all sinners , not saints, they do not even know the scriptures themselves or are deliberately misrepresenting them, or have in turn been deceived into never bothering to read and understand every word of God before deciding to be a sinner priest ...

Who then do sinners serve as lord, who do they obey, Jesus' command to love or Satan's command to sin ... being a sinner makes one servant to one's lord, but it is not Jesus one serves... who then does the religion of sinner priests serve...

Is it not time yet to read the bible and check out what one believes to see every word of God before committing one's faith in this world full of deceivers to the beliefs of sinners merely dressed-up as priests ?

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

stranger · #27 28th October 2007, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by français

... what is your interpretation of the eternal torment, as seen in Matthew 25:46, among others?

The Greek word that is translated into 'eternal' is "aionion." and it comes from the Greek root , "aion", meaning an "age" or "aeon" of time.

Mainline christianity is still fighting to maintain that an age can be an infinite length of time, but in fact all the places this word is used in scripture can be very satisfactorily interpreted by seeing that it is most definitely a finite length of time, an aeon cannot be infinite... and indeed we know from modern Physics that time was created with space as one thing in creation of the universe, so it will end when this earth and heavens ends ... time itself is finite, and the churches only fight to pretend it is not because they cannot afford to be seen as having been wrong for over a thousand years... bad for the image of infallibility and authority! ... bad for attendance and money coming in...

That single mistranslation is responsible for all the scripture quoted in support of 'eternal punishment' and it is truly irrational now we now that there is no infinity of time, that Newton's assumption was mistaken...

So some people resort to trying to punish the immortal spirit of a man even after it returns to God ! They have just lost their senses trying to keep disproven dogma alive , the spirit cannot suffer, it is beyond time , it cannot be damaged, timeless God cannot be damaged... time is needed for damage...

It is a deductive proof then that spirit cannot suffer, it just comes from the meaning of the words, one should not have to prove it if people simply understood the words they use, but then most do not bother with anything so menial as actually understanding what they are saying [LOL? ]

You would not credit how much hot air has been wasted over one sloppy translation error [until one looks at history and finds that it was not a mistake, it was deliberate deception ... equally, how could anyone who works on translation as a speciality make such an elementary error, it has to have been deliberate, and based upon personal mis-beliefs of the time, and that indeed is what we find from the history , the mistranslation came because people believed this at the time, just as Jesus points out, the churches have to become apostate , it is part of God's plan... but one cannot really expect churches top teach this scripture !]

So it turns out to be yet another religious conspiracy, one that continues although clearly now on the back foot because people in mainline churches insisted that they be allowed to read scripture for themselves, the churches finally caved in on that one and hoped people would not bother... indeed most still don't, but some do and some see through the deception... still only a few ... the churches cave-i n was a good move for them because if they had not then more people would have read the scripture in defiance than now trouble to read it for what is one reason that it was written for :-

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

For myself I understood it from the heart of love... if one's god is that love then it is for all men , it requires equality ... and God surely has the means to create saints even from stiff-necked, rebellious idolatous Israel by means of simply showing them His truth... so it will work for many others too as Jesus states [Rev 7:9-10]

By the time God has redeemed countless many simply by telling His truth to all men [Joel 2:28, John 16:13] there is only Satan and the most evil of men left ... such a clever move by God because the evil then suffer their own evil , there is no-one 'good' left to prey upon and the all lose out... this then is the lake of the fire of God's truth rained down on those who do not accept his truth even when given it by Him after he has shown His power by resurrecting them!

To me that lake of 'fire' is beautiful 'poetic' justice , a loving way to get men to see evil never was good at all and sue for His enduring mercy... one cannot devise a farer way for men to come to see things God's way who just will not believe it when told by God...

So they will all abandon Satan and turn to love, accept Jesus' way and obey his command to love as their lord , and in the end Satan is left alone and God has proved to His 'prodigal son' that he is not the god of men at all, all have deserted him because of what he taught ...

Thus even Satan commits to love in the end... the proof is perhaps one of the most powerful statements made by Jesus in all scripture , the endpoint where love conquers all evil and all creation accepts Jesus as Lord , commits to his command and is loving, thus perfect in love after trial to see they are, all are translated to spirit and that is the end of time, the end of the physical.. :-

Revelation 5:13 [Rotherham Emphasised Bible] And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

The proof of salvation of all can be seen in many scriptures , far too many to put here even in a list, but this one verse is sufficient in itself to show that if one realises that Jesus commands love and perfect love [no unlovingness, no sin] is sufficient for redemption to spirit]

There is also the proof some require that Satan was created and manifests as a man [Ezek 28]

There is much more of course which you will likely read and see for yourself in scripture , and I daresay there are many more discussions for us

but this is a sufficient sketch of the initial point, enough to disprove what almost all christian sinners believe these days... but universal salvation was believed in the early 'church' by a substantial group until they were branded 'heretics' by the meeting at Nicaea ... such is the problem of giving power to sinners, they will trample on the pearls ... soon you may come to see that it all has to be that way , it was all prophesied and written down , even in the Torah it is prefigured by symbols , events , and promises of God to Israel...

You will also come to see why few people bother to unravel and integrate the scripture and why God's plan indeed requires them not to do so at this time , something I argued with God about for three years ... He likes to win arguments and I am the winner really, by learning why he is right , it is one way to learn ....

May His peace, through faith in his love , come upn you and rest with you,
Roger.

stranger · #28 28th October 2007, 04:16 PM

...

stranger · #29 28th October 2007, 04:18 PM

You may note that there is not one heaven in scripture , but three ... the first two have a corresponding two earths, but there is no such physical realm in the third heaven , the paradise of God where is the tree of life [immortality of the spirit] ... this then is the 'garden' and the serpent is none other than the left-hand covering cherub at the throne of God , Satan.. the other covering cherub is the Word [Logos] which manifested as Jesus the man ... each cherub has four faces , one is a man [mortality], one a lion [destructive power] , on is an eagle [the spirit]... [note the poor translation in scripture, 'cherub' is the singular, 'cherubim' is the Hebrew plural, 'cherubs' is the English plural... so why is it translated 'cherubims' in scripture ! ...??? ]

Thus we know Satan is redeemed to spirit , we know Jesus mediates the Wrath of the Lamb [destruction of this earth] and we see him standing as the cherub at the right-hand of God ......

Note that Satan is created [perfect] and dies as a man [Ezek 18]

note that all created beings accept Jesus Christ's dominion as Lord in the end and thus obey his command to love and are thus redeeeed [e.g Ezek 18:21], not having to die again to free them from sin because they now obey Jesus

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

Note the three baptisms necessary for redemption from the physical realm, water, spirit, blood [fire] :-

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

turning to face God , being enabled to resist Satan by God's truth given, and the precious trial of faith to show one will not turn back to sin, perfection of one's love...

that is all that is required, but note that god alone decides when a man is baptised with His spirit... one cannot acquire true faith, it must be given by God :-

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

One can acquire empty faith in sinners and their icons/dogmas very easily in this world , and most men are far too much in a hurry to wait upon God ... unsurprising since God has said He will baptise but a few in this life and the many follow after death frees them from sin, grace is just for the few then... note how FEW in the first group saved by grace by the narrow strait way and how many in the second group saved by the broad way through death in Rev 7:3-10

The first group are the priests who minister to the billions in the second group ... salvation is thus a power process, using the first to help the second and the second then help the third but in different manner] ...the plan is ordered and carefully structured, and is thus not all-or-none as is taught by sinners, but a growth process of the kingdom of God, begun in this world with Jesus and the 144,000 saints , continued in the next world with the rest of Israel and billions of gentiles... a massive project ,so the priest-kings are readied first ...

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Note that Israel has never been a kingdom of priests and that Israel is still divided... the Messiah does not even finish that work until the new earth because many of Israel died sinners and never even knew the Messiah who would be their king after the second resurrection when all Israel are all alive again at once for the first time ever :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Thus Jesus first tasks were to establish the new covenant of forgiveness of BOTH kingdoms of Israel , note that it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9], only with the House of Israel and the House of Judah...

Now the Jews are easy to find because of Judaism, but the House of Israel have been living now for three millenia as gentiles, worshipping idols and pagan gods... Jesus thus starts with the harder task, enlisting a few Jews to continue the task after his death

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, ...

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The irony is than that the Jews will be united with the House of Israel they hate [for idolatry] and the two under Jesus will afterward in the new earth, serve as a royal priesthood to redeem all the sinner 'christians' who hate them now! ...all the hatred , all the anti-Semitism, , all just to make God's plan work smoothly ,so no-one gets to the truth too soon, no-one too late ! ... quite beautiful, like a perfect song ...

stranger · #30 29th October 2007, 10:19 AM

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So few follow Jesus and are taken by Jesus in this life ....Jesus says how many is a 'few' in Rev 7:3-8 and we know this is literal because Enoch says it is only tens of thousands of saints , confirmed as true by Jude :-

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

[small point - Enoch wrote in Hebrew ,in which he uses the single word for 'ten thousand' , so this would more truly be translated as 'tens of thousands']

So the many [over twelve billion sinners that ever lived] go by the broad way through destruction in death , including all the sinners of the divided modern religion including any sect or denomination which ever had more than a few [144,000] followers !

mass religion of sinners thus has a very different role in God's plan than the few saints , Jesus confirms that he will not take anyone who has not stopped sinning by his return :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Those that continue to sin may call Jesus lord and invite him in, but Jesus points out that he never knew them if they do not stop before his retur, and asks why they call him lord [meaning one that one obeys] if they do not obey him :-

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The foundation of following Jesus and naming the Christ, the strait and narrow way of the few saints is thus to depart from sinning any longer , to become all-loving in obedience to Jesus as lord, in his commandment to love, not sin.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

It is clear then both from Jesus own words and those of the saints , that no-one who is a sinner by Jesus return can be saved then from the broad way of the many billions of sinners that ever lived , destruction in death, the wages of sin.

BUT Jesus also says that uncountably many of all nations are saved afterward :-

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

These all went by the broad way of sin in this life , yet they are eventually saved according to Jesus ... but contrary to almost all divided modern Christian doctrine of denominations and sects !

Now the first resurrection is for the just , the saints justified by the holy spirit to stop sinning :-

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

so when are the many sinners resurrected from death and hell :-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

the second resurrection is of the sinners , the unjustified unjust , over 12 billion sinners that ever lived, many of them never having even heard of Jesus in their life, many tragically having the briefest of lives...

Who then do the priests of God minister to and how are uncountably many of these sinners saved , hell having given them up ? What does Jesus say :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So something over 12 billion sinners are resurrected after the millenium , freed from sin by death , to be ministered to by the saints and Jesus in the established kingdom of God with Jesus and the priests reigning over the many :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The many then are free from sin before death and judged by works in the kingdom where they have a perfect ministry by saints to rule and guide them into a loving righteous life of good works by which they will be judged...

Clearly then the many do not require grace, but are judged by works, so where does it say that only the few receive grace ? The answer is the new covenant of grace itself , it says explicitly that it is only with those whose ancestors broke the old covenant, and that the two rejected parts of Israel , the House of Judah ('Jews') and the lost people of the House of Israel are now forgiven...

Jesus confirms in Rev 7:3-8 that the few are indeed all descendants of Jacob , from the named tribes of Israel...

Thus the salvation of the many sinners of this world depends on the earlier salvation of a remnant few of the tribes of Israel at Jesus' return...

The few are first because they must be readied to rule and minister to billions , and God's promise handed down through the Hebrews to a remnant few [sometimes only one] in each generation is j=kept, according to Jesus' own revelation :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The OT and NT are thus indeed one truth of God ... [but the story in scripture of the reason God gives for apostate modern religion of the many sinners of this world and their sinner priesthoods is large enough for a separate thread ]

Originally Posted by francais

... I love the Torah because it is just such a beautiful book. Most of the laws are beautiful,

What laws do you not think are beautiful , do you know what in yourself makes them beautiful or not?

and it is just such a great way of life if one follows the Mitzvots.

What do you feel about the death penalty for polluting sabbath on Israel and the way the Jewish hierarchy changed the sabbath timing in adopting Halkhic local time, not God's absolute timekeeping?

It is so detailed and specific, and so elaborate. I feel myself with such peace when I read the daily Parsha.. Just seeing such a beautiful book with such great wisdom and laws is just amazing!

What do you think of Jesus' criticism of the Jewish law for carefully picking out all the finer points in great detail, but missing some of the larger more important aspects of love [like the care of orphans and widows ... note that he was also being symbolic here because to God both the Jews and the House of Israel are 'widows' having lost their early marriage to Him and been rejected for breaking the old covenant , orphans because their father is dead and instead they turn to "blind shepherds" which can only refer to the Rabbis?

And, in my opinion it can conform to our modern times. Which is something that I like.

That is very true of course, one could in principle still keep the old covenant and God would honour His commitment under it because of obedience to the ancient laws... but the Jewish hierarchy do not keep all the ancient laws any longer, things have been altered through time on authority of men, not God ... and of course it is Jeremiah who states the new covenant with the Jews and the House of Israel in the OT, not Jesus - Jer 31:31-34

It is not all the conservative as some says.

In a way it would be better if the Jews were more 'conservative', if they had not changed the law over time... but I do not think that the insertions into the law are the biggest problem, it is the parts they refuse to acknowledge, that embarrass them , which are the real obstacle to their moving yet into their glorious future as the royal priesthood of God alongside the House of Israel [1Pet 2:9-10, Exodus 19:6]...

I would like to know any insights you have on this, I understand that they rejected the House of Israel because of idolatry , what I don't understand is why they cannot forgive yet and be reconciled ... it is against their loving nature to hold a grudge like that and yet they simply don't read out in synagogues the passages in scripture about the reconciliation with the House of Israel ... the prophet describes their new covenant with God, but they most just ignore the prophet... it puzzles me to know why?

So yeah! It is just a really awesome, beautiful book full of a ton of wisdom and all.

Indeed , it is truly awesome, and curiously contains much knowledge which most Jews never get around to acknowledging ... which is perhaps why Moses tells them they will get 'awakened' by becoming jealous of their own Torah being expounded to them about 'their' Messiah by a strange nation who do not even speak Hebrew ...and who are not even a recognised people any more ... it is not hard to positively identify this peculiar people in the scripture, they are just the House of Israel whom Jesus and his disciples have worked for two millenia to gather out from amongst the gentiles where they now still live as gentiles [but they are Israelites by birth of course, children of Israel just as much as the Jews]

Deuteronomy 32:21 ...I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isaiah 7:8 ... within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
[Ephraim was the leading tribe in the House of Israel]
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Jer 31;31-34 confirms the forgiving and re-acceptance of both the Jews and the House of Israel and the task of the Messiah, Jesus, to re-unite them under one king, himself!

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

but in this world only a remnant are taken first , just 144,000 of the descendants of the tribes of Israel [Rev 7:3-8] ... thus the kingdom of God is only in those few in this world, or as Jesus puts it, his kingdom is not of this earth ... thus Israel will not reign over and minister to the gentiles in this earth, but in the new earth, since they do reign on earth:-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

I love some of the wisdom in the NT as well, but the NT is a lot more confusing in my opinion.

I think you will come to see that the NT has been somewhat mangled by Roman christianity in their vain effort to write the Hebrews out of the Hebrew religion they borrowed and corrupted to paganism [in order to control the worrying (to them) spread of the original Hebrew christianity, Hebrew saints teaching the people and revealing the corruption of Roman authority

It was Rome that altered the 'christian' religion , crucified St Peter and fed countless Hebrew saints to the lions... then just made laws to change christianity [not least Sunday worship to correspond to Roman tradition of their day of worship of the sun god] ... then they put a hierarchy of sinners as their 'priests' in place of the non-hierarchical saints whom they had slaughtered ... some fled of course and escaped, but the seven churches of God ,the only churches referred to by Jesus, were razed to the ground and lie in ruins to this day ... the saints had no way or need to congregate after that because their commission was to find the House of Israel scattered amongst all the gentile nations... some two thousand only to spread across the whole world and find just 144,000 individuals over some two millenia... obviously the needed to move alone most of the time at least, certainly they could not afford to spend their lives in one place and build churches [for christianity to then declare heretical and burn down , as in fact happened in history again and again, but they were the wrong ones that got burned, christianity never managed to kill all the Hebrew saints , as the scripture records they will not do] ...

So perhps you begin to see why christianity is not the place to learn about the NT ... one can only learn its message in light of the OT scripture by reading it for yourself alone with God... the 'spin' in christianity is pretty awesomely refined now , wily as Satan can be , since they have had two thousand years almost to twist what it says and convince people not to read the OT, and not to read Revelation , in fact for many years ;'christians' were forbidden to read the bible at all! ... just to listen to sinner 'priests' telling them what to believe... incredible perhaps, but it is all written down ... it cannot be denied , with all its contradictions in black and white ... yet it is these things which make God's plan work, they govern its timing to perfection, and most men do not even notice it working its inevitable way to its conclusion.... pretty beautiful really, just way beyond the scheming of men ... it actually uses the schemes of men to make it work perfectly, traps the evil of men in their own 'clever' traps, God is that far above our thoughts and desires ...

The Tanakh is very consistent all the time.

Jews have been working at that for even longer than the 'chrsitian' sinner priests have been working their 'spin' of the NT ... thus one needs to look carefully at all the bits which don't fit,all the bits left out, if one is to discover the details of God's awesome whole plan behind the smoothish fronts put up [but different!] by Jews and 'chrstians' alike ... the first clue is then that they both believe supposedly in one God, yet they don't agree!! ... it shows that at least one group must be wrong, the DETAILS of scripture of God shows both are already wrong at this time because God requires that for now ... what can one say, god has it wrapped up perfectly and men think they know enough to believe in sinners who claim authority to tell people in place of God... we shall see who was right, but it wasn't even a close thing ...