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Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

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Old 23rd August 2007, 03:14 PM
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Can ID be supportable without underlying faith?

Hello all, long time no see! Life interferes every now and then, so it has been a while since I have been here.

Here is a new article I have written on the subject of Intelligent Design:

http://euangelion.wordpress.com/2007...erlying-faith/

[keep in mind that I am a Christian, writing TO Christians on this subject]

While I am sympathetic to the movement’s desire to allow God back into the scientific discussions, and while I obviously agree with their ultimate conclusions that God created all things, I am just not sure that God created in a way that provides natural scientific proof of His involvement (which is the basis of ID arguments). Further, there is a “dirty little secret” about the ID movement which I will discuss at the end of this post!

I have read some of the intelligent design materials and much of it seems to center around the idea that what we have now is uniquely and amazingly well-suited to fit, well, the way things are now. “If X was even slightly different, we would not be able to live on this planet”, etc. This makes a very large logical fallacy: that this end product was inevitable. Let’s look at this from the perspective of a non-believer, since the ID movement is attempting to present its position AS science, as fully supportable by the material evidence alone, using scientific methods, without resort to faith.


The ID movement starts with the current state of things as if this state of things was the ultimate goal, and then works backwards to show that everything perfectly fits what we have now, and the ODDS of things turning out this way is so tremendously low, that it MUST have come about by design. The whole watchmaker argument. This, ultimately, seems to be the “knock-out punch” of the ID argument.


However, even though I am a Christian and believe that God did create everything, I have to admit that this ID argument just doesn’t hold up logically without a pre-existing belief. The presupposition is that the “current” was the “goal” and this is a position that is not self-evident, but a matter of belief, and a belief which I happen to hold as well. The response is obviously that everything fits because if it did not fit, we would not be here and, here is the kicker, something else would be here! At each stage of possibilities, something else could have happened and the universe would then fit that instead of what we have now. Whatever path the development of the universe took, it could be argued, everything would fit that path or it wouldn’t be there. The odds of a particular person winning the lottery are dramatically low, but the odds of someone winning the lottery are 100%.

Now, I do believe God created the universe and everything in it. And I do think that God designed every process that is now in place in this universe and He knew exactly how it would all turn out. And I also believe that He has purposefully intervened in His creation when and where it fit His plan to do so (a particular event 2000 years ago, for example), and that He will do so again. And yes, I can feel God in the many wonders of the universe and this planet.


But I also have to recognize that the whole ID argument can only be convincing to those, like myself, who already believe that this current state of the universe, with Man sitting here as we are, is how it had to end up. Thus, it is an argument that can only preach to the choir, but can have no logical or persuasive effect to those who do not share this pressuposition. Atheists, I must reluctantly admit, are right to reject it.


“But then how do we know God exists?!”, the Christians exclaim (and atheists too, for that matter).


Faith. The evidence of things NOT seen.


Experience. The personal relationship with the all-powerful.


The Word. God’s timeless message to all of us.


If we, as Christians, are to reach the non-believer, we must do so on a theological, philosophical and relational level, not by an attempt to “prove” God must have designed everything.

And, now, here is the “dirty little secret” I was promising you. We all know that the ID movement, while represented by some scientists, is funded and promoted by religious groups, that is not the secret. What those religious groups usually do not know, however, is what these scientists actually propose. All they know is that the ID scientists say “Darwinistic evolution can’t work, it required an intelligent designer!” and they jump on board. If they looked a bit deeper, I believe most of ID’s evangelical supporters would cringe, for the same reason that Answers in Genesis, the leading Creationist ministry, is not comfortable with the ID movement. The leading ID scientists, including Behe, Denton and to a certain extent Dembski, accept the fact that life has developed over billions of years. And the first two don’t seem to have any problem at all with the idea that life evolved from earlier species and even a common ancestor! What they object to is the Darwinian mechanism of natural selection, since it involves random, entirely natural processes. And even then they accept the basics of the mechanical concept, just saying that it can’t work entirely naturally, that it has some inherent problems that could only be overcome by some higher power.


Again, I applaud the desire to get God back into the discussion when it comes to scientific analysis, but I think it requires a broadening of the scope of inquiry beyond science to include the concept of the supernatural, not insisting that God can be “proved” by the natural evidence as a scientific proposition. I do believe, as the ID scientists do, that the evidence supports an earth billions of years old and a process of evolutionary development. And as a Christian, I believe, as the ID scientists do, that God was behind all of this. But I differ with the ID scientists in that I don’t think that this conclusion can be arrived at by reference solely to the natural evidence. I think there is some evidence there, but if I was not a believer, I could not honestly reach that conclusion based solely on the evidence.


I would be interested in any thoughts you may have, either posting here or there. Thanks!

BTW, that blog is a Christian blog, primarily FOR Christians, so if you are not a Christian and want to comment, feel free to do so here.
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In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis.

Last edited by Vance; 23rd August 2007 at 05:17 PM.
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  #2  
Old 23rd August 2007, 03:23 PM
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Nice! Even though I don't agree with you on a few points, it's still a really well-written article.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 03:54 PM
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Adding; Scientifically religious dogmas are untestable because they rely on faith, is supernatural and unobservable and do the scientific process backwards - They start with the conclusion, then find evidence to support it and finally judge real scientific theories as unscientific and find tiny holes in it which eventually get covered and this is quite funny, because their own theories are a giant black hole that never get covered and just gets bigger and bigger as science gets to know more.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 04:33 PM
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That's a very fine article.

Peter
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Old 23rd August 2007, 06:28 PM
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Very good article. Does a great job of explaining why the Anthropic Principle is wrong. I'll be sure to bookmark it for later use. I promise to credit you too.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 06:44 PM
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If I found a DNA sequence in a vertebrate that strongly violated the nested hierarchy and was flanked by multiple cloning sites I would strongly suspect intelligent design. Design by humans, that is.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 08:06 PM
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Ah, but Loudmouth, would that then be "intelligent" design!?

BTW, there has been some comments and discussion on that blog thread for any who are interested. In it I give a couple of examples which argue against the anthropic position.
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