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  #1  
Old 30th September 2003, 01:47 AM
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Question Possible sign of evolution?

Everyone has heard of wisdom teeth, granted they serve no purpose, at least i've never read or have been told they serve a purpose. The average human jaw isnt large enough to accomadate(sp?) the wisdom teeth. Now, why is this?

Couldn't this be because perhaps its an evolutionary change that humans are going through right now because our eating habits have changed over thousands of years? Scientists know that nehanderthals(sp?) needed all their teeth for eating rough raw foods. Its also a fact that in the last 300 years, the average american has gotten taller.

Discuss! Oh, and Its my pleasure to tell everyone that i'll be fortunate enough to have my wisdom teeth removed--this saturday! I can hardly wait, and I hope it goes as smooth as possible.
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  #2  
Old 30th September 2003, 02:26 AM
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As I understand it, we have a smaller jaw compared to other apes, but the same amount of teeth. So complications can arise.

I'm not sure if you know this or not, but Neanderthals weren't our ancestors.
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Old 30th September 2003, 03:38 AM
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I know you said "average human being" which means it doesn't apply to everyone. My dad being one of them. He has room for his wisdom teeth, plus room to spare. No real point to my comment, just simply brought it up.
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Old 30th September 2003, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Halruaa
Everyone has heard of wisdom teeth, granted they serve no purpose, at least i've never read or have been told they serve a purpose. The average human jaw isnt large enough to accomadate(sp?) the wisdom teeth. Now, why is this? *snip*
Wisdom teeth may not be convincing evidence for evolution to the hardened creationist, but it does add to the 'design imperfection' pot. Wisdom teeth in most humans serve no purpose other than to rupture the gum, or impact another tooth, thus causing great pain and the necessity for removal.

They're un-needed, just like the hair follicles that cover our naked bodies.
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Old 1st October 2003, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Halruaa
Everyone has heard of wisdom teeth, granted they serve no purpose, at least i've never read or have been told they serve a purpose. The average human jaw isnt large enough to accomadate(sp?) the wisdom teeth. Now, why is this?

Couldn't this be because perhaps its an evolutionary change that humans are going through right now because our eating habits have changed over thousands of years? Scientists know that nehanderthals(sp?) needed all their teeth for eating rough raw foods. Its also a fact that in the last 300 years, the average american has gotten taller.

Discuss! Oh, and Its my pleasure to tell everyone that i'll be fortunate enough to have my wisdom teeth removed--this saturday! I can hardly wait, and I hope it goes as smooth as possible.
I have seen wisdom teeth used as an argument against evolution (we are becoming worse (devolving) hence our mouths are no longer big enough for the teeth) I think the rest of the thread is on topic though, and our changes are the result of diet etc. If you want examples of evolution (and not just mere "possible signs" then there are lots
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Old 1st October 2003, 03:35 AM
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First, let's take down the standard creationist "rebuttal". Then we can get down to business.

A common misconception among the lay public and media is that "vestigial" is equivalent to useless. Depending on the definition of "useful", this can be true or false, and varies on a case by case basis. However, the biological term, at least as it pertains to evolution, has always meant "reduced or rudimentary structure when compared with the same structure in another organism".

I think this confusion comes from the way biological "function" is quite specific and differs from the way we use it in common language, e.g. "usefulness". I'll expand on this below.

It could be argued that an inner tube in an aeroplane wing designed by modifying a car tire via evolutionary computer simulation has some "function", i.e. ties it together instead of nuts and bolts; but the fact that it's lacking its "proper purpose", as Darwin put it, in favor of some marginal application many other structures are more suited to or no application at all, makes it a bona-fide vestige.

Similarly, a broken radio in a car may prevent the dashboard above from collapsing; nevertheless, no one in their right mind would claim that made the radio any less broken.

For another example, fused wings might make a beetle's back harder and subsequently less prone to smushing; yet they're still vestigial wings that no longer serve what they're clearly best suited for. Finally, eyes on blind cave fish might be described as "functional" in that they keep their brains from leaking out their eye sockets; but they're still vestigial EYES.

TalkOrigins, as always, subtly rips creationists a few new belly holes in this well-researched article, including pointing out that Scadding, whom anti-evolutionists love to quote as a supporter of the "vestigial = useless" concept, was quite wrong about the definition of "vestiges", which hasn't been significantly revised in more than a century.

Nevertheless, vestigial organs are now only an accessory line of evidence, not the main ones supporting evolution. They simply don't have the whiz-bang factor of stuff like fossils and ancient retroviral infection fragments shared in genomes of related species.

Vestiges just can't compete here, but they can be an independent test on common descent nevertheless. The standard phylogenetic tree makes a great number of predictions on which ones can be found and which are barred. Mammals, for example, will never have vestigial feathers in this scenario, as they diverged from the reptiles before birds. Neither will a new species of tropical amphibian be discovered that nurses its young. Sharks will never have vestigial reptilian teeth. And so on, on, and on...

So, where does that leave us? Simply put, there are a great many vestiges in the biosphere. Dandelions, which reproduce without fertilization, nevertheless produce vestigial flowers and pollen. Humans have vestigial wisdom teeth that don't even sprout in much of the population, much less help in any significant way, and that often create problems by using too much jaw space.



Twenty-eight teeth are fully sufficient for the human jaw, with the extra four causing many a problem in dental history by erupting incorrectly due to our smaller jaws. But just for posterity, how many teeth did ancient fossil hominids possess?



You may count them. That's 32, with the last ones being similarly oversized as our own wisdom teeth but nicely-fitting in such a massive jaw. Compare the Australopithecus africanus and Homo sapiens jaws in the lower part of the illustration, and take note that the first preceded the other in the fossil record.

Another example; snakes and whales can independently be assigned as descendants of leg-possessing animals based on independent evidence, such as anatomical analysis of their skulls and rib cages. In some species of both, a vestigial pelvis can be found. As has been discussed before, whales occasionally resurface with the actual digit-possessing hindlimbs. Embryonic comparison confirms this as well, as whales develop temporary hind limb buds.

Finally, early fossil whales had real, bona-fide legs, latter ones used them progressively less, and the last ones had almost undetectible vestiges.

Is the independent confirmation of four fundamentally different lines of evidence yet another "coincidence" that common descent would predict but common descent-denial needs to explain away?
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Old 1st October 2003, 08:18 AM
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I'm one of the lucky ones who only has 28 teeth! I never had my wisdom teeth removed, and there's no sign of them in my jaw.

You're looking at the next stage of human evolution right here

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Old 1st October 2003, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by davyuk
I'm one of the lucky ones who only has 28 teeth! I never had my wisdom teeth removed, and there's no sign of them in my jaw.

You're looking at the next stage of human evolution right here
me too The British Empire will rise again, spearheaded by Homo Sapiens-Superior
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Old 1st October 2003, 09:39 AM
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Old 1st October 2003, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Jet Black
me too The British Empire will rise again, spearheaded by Homo Sapiens-Superior
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