| Christian Philosophy & Ethics The forum to discuss philosophy and ethics from a Christian perspective. |
 | | 
16th August 2007, 11:07 AM
| | Mature veteran
61      
| | Join Date: 13th September 2006 Location: MA
Posts: 7,788
Blessings: 4,088,581
Reps: 237,686,524,310,066,144 (power: 237,686,524,310,080) | | Originally Posted by Nadiine  The reason people don't marry imo is becuz the laws of divorce are so outrageous. ie. ALIMONY.
Get a divorce and you owe at least 1/2 of your income to someone for years on end.... then again, as some laws go, just living w/ someone for a certain amount of years constitutes "marriage" and you owe alimony anyways. (Palimony).
Here's what I think tho - people aren't marrying BECUZ THEY'RE IN REBELLION TO GOD'S STANDARD.
In God's eyes, they ARE still married to their very FIRST spouse (and or the partner they first had sex with) - they might divorce, but they're committing adultery when they have sex with the next partner they date!
They can refuse to marry, but in God's eyes, they ARE MARRIED whether they formally comply with Govt. laws of getting a certificate or not.
People are going to get a real rude awakening one day.
It's a sign of the times that people are refusing to follow the commands set by God, to live alternatively their own ways as they choose.
The Bible prophecies what we're seeing in the world.
I'm sorry, Nadiine ... but I think that really misrepresents what the Bible says. We aren't under the law. I read your comments as putting people under the law. Jesus died to set us from from the law of sin and death.
People are interested in love not the death that the administration of the law brings. Why do people not get married today. Not because they are mad at God but because the current way marriage is looked at doesn't help them love God or the person they are with. Some keep using the marriage laws to hurt people, to take money from people.
Jesus clearly didn't follow the tradtions of me. He intentially broke the Sabbath to let the Pharisees know that they had made the Sabbath law a means of hurting people rather than loving people.
So just as Jesus broke the traditions of men, people today are breaking our modern tradtion of marriage because they don't see it as a loving institution. They see preachers say we are to live a certain way to serve the institution of marriage. But Christianity isn't about serving laws, but about loving God and people. Jesus called us to love people not to obey laws. Jesus said this over and over in the Gospels. Paul said this in Galatains with great force. Also commenting on this in Romans and 1 Cor.
that's how I read God's word.
dayhiker |
16th August 2007, 11:57 AM
|  | Legend
    
 | | Join Date: 14th April 2006 Location: Obama: 53% deserve him ;)
Posts: 52,392
Blessings: 143,270 My Mood 
Reps: 6,688,658,930,375,081 (power: 0) | | | law and grace
Originally Posted by dayhiker I'm sorry, Nadiine ... but I think that really misrepresents what the Bible says. We aren't under the law. I read your comments as putting people under the law. Jesus died to set us from from the law of sin and death.
People are interested in love not the death that the administration of the law brings. Why do people not get married today. Not because they are mad at God but because the current way marriage is looked at doesn't help them love God or the person they are with. Some keep using the marriage laws to hurt people, to take money from people.
Jesus clearly didn't follow the tradtions of me. He intentially broke the Sabbath to let the Pharisees know that they had made the Sabbath law a means of hurting people rather than loving people.
So just as Jesus broke the traditions of men, people today are breaking our modern tradtion of marriage because they don't see it as a loving institution. They see preachers say we are to live a certain way to serve the institution of marriage. But Christianity isn't about serving laws, but about loving God and people. Jesus called us to love people not to obey laws. Jesus said this over and over in the Gospels. Paul said this in Galatains with great force. Also commenting on this in Romans and 1 Cor.
that's how I read God's word.
dayhiker
First off, I don't care WHY people refuse to marry - it honestly doesn't matter what their reasons might be.
And the ones that are refusing to legally get married, aren't most like proclaiming they're devout born again Believers of Christ. They're living how they want - not being compliant with God's teachings on obedience to authority/civil laws or stumbling a brother, appearances of evil, fornication, or adultery & whatever else.
Further, since they claim they aren't marrying, they're also predominantly living together for brief amounts of time and breaking up to date & sleep with others later on. (what do they do when it comes to divorce by the way??)
The reasons don't matter, what matters is how many partners they break up with and move onto new partners (adultery and/or sex out of wedlock) and how God judges their actions - as to His laws of what sin is.
IF they're Christian, God WILL eventually be able to convict them to repent of their sexual sins when committed, if not, they only do what the lost normally do: live in sin without repenting or changing. 
LAW:
K, you've wrongly understood me then about being under the Torah Law from the OT and I never said we were...
We ARE under "the law of Christ" - and that means we ARE still under laws of God that He says we're to obey - that is unless you believe that everyone is now free to commit moral sins like: murder, hatred, drunkeness, drug abuse, rape, violent abuse, beastility, stealing, lying, cheating, commit adultery, incest, fornication, extortion, coveting, etc.
Since God STILL considers those things sin in the NT, then we ARE under God's laws today... they simply carry over from the OT.
Jesus fulfilled the OT law - it's not "gone" - He paid the price of sin for us; thereby cancelling the condemnation (penalty of the law) to any who accept His blood payment for sin, and He initiated a new way to worship Him directly. (ceremonial laws changed - ie. animal sacrifice, dietary & cleanliness laws)
We aren't "lawless" as Christians. In fact, that's exactly what Paul was working to defeat by his letters to the Corinthian church - "antinomianism"... the new [carnal] believers thought that by Jesus making us "free from the law", that they were then free to live in moral sins and do whatever they wanted.
Paul corrected them to say that we are still under God's laws - just that the OT law had changed due to Grace, but we're still obligated to it's moral code of laws (reiterated into the NT) & to accept Christ's payment for our sin.
And that is what I mean when I say "God's laws".
 
Last edited by Nadiine; 16th August 2007 at 12:06 PM.
Reason: *cleaned up
|
16th August 2007, 11:58 AM
|  | fundamentally liberal
34 
| | Join Date: 24th December 2003
Posts: 8,314
Blessings: 77,849
Reps: 115,113,221,087,288,640 (power: 115,113,221,087,306) | | Originally Posted by Digit I find that worrying line of thought. We've spoken before about how we view sex prior to marriage, and yeah we don't agree basically.  I feel God gave us commandments in order to protect us.
I see. I basically see it like this, that God didn't actually give us commandments (only the jews, under a totally different covenant), and anyway we are dead to the law now. Also, the law wasn't given for protection, but to make sin exceedingly sinful.
Not to debate that here, just clarifying how I think. Originally Posted by Digit The "I SHALT NOT" is there for a reason, and by removing it, you are just basically caving into your desires to live life your way, rather than honor God.
Actually it's the other way around - the commandment is the power OF sin, not against it. When the commandment comes, sin springs to life. Sin takes advantage of the commandment. Originally Posted by Digit If you wish to know that, you should get married. Sex is for the married couple to enjoy, and if you are true in your love and respect, what will marriage change except put your relationship right in God's eyes?
I don't think marriage, in our human sense of the word, changes much about how God sees it - God joining two people together simply isn't the same thing as having a legal/traditional wedding. Originally Posted by Digit It was so incredibly easy not to have sex after having sex?
Heh, no, you misread me. What I meant was that as soon as I stopped thinking that "I shalt not have sex" sin could no longer take advantage of that particular commandment, and couldn't "produce in me every covetous desire", as Paul worded it. Originally Posted by Digit Scripture doesn't agree with you. The Bible says it is better to marry than to burn with desire. So either God knows best, or you do.
Sure, but then the bible doesn't define marriage in the same way as the church or the state does.
We are going to get married in a traditional sense, but having a wedding won't change how I see our relationship at all. For me, it will be a celebration of our relationship, not a requirement for it.
__________________ Originally Posted by Paul To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> Why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? |
16th August 2007, 12:03 PM
| | Senior Veteran
| | Join Date: 6th October 2006
Posts: 5,292
Blessings: 387,571
Reps: 10,191,356,772,439,020 (power: 10,191,356,772,451) | | Originally Posted by dayhiker I'm sorry, Nadiine ... but I think that really misrepresents what the Bible says. We aren't under the law. I read your comments as putting people under the law. Jesus died to set us from from the law of sin and death.
People are interested in love not the death that the administration of the law brings. Why do people not get married today. Not because they are mad at God but because the current way marriage is looked at doesn't help them love God or the person they are with. Some keep using the marriage laws to hurt people, to take money from people.
Jesus clearly didn't follow the tradtions of me. He intentially broke the Sabbath to let the Pharisees know that they had made the Sabbath law a means of hurting people rather than loving people.
So just as Jesus broke the traditions of men, people today are breaking our modern tradtion of marriage because they don't see it as a loving institution. They see preachers say we are to live a certain way to serve the institution of marriage. But Christianity isn't about serving laws, but about loving God and people. Jesus called us to love people not to obey laws. Jesus said this over and over in the Gospels. Paul said this in Galatains with great force. Also commenting on this in Romans and 1 Cor.
that's how I read God's word.
dayhiker
It is very odd to see all these posts on a Christian Forum against marriage and in favor of shacking up.
Marriage is symbolic of our relationship with Christ. We are his bride, he gave his life for us. We are to be chaste while waiting for him, and, await his coming robed in white.
The scripture no where teaches a relaxed attitude towards the institution of marriage. It is a sacred union. That our society at large is so dis- functional in regards to the same doesn't diminish the importance, and sanctity of marriage.
We are instructed to remain single or to marry. Anything in-between is fornication. We are to live as one if marred, willing to sacrifice and die for our partner and our children.
The problem today is, we are caught up in the value system of our times. Family is supposed to be a mirror of our relationship with God, which starts with marriage. Children should be our greatest possession. But today we prize position and possessions above God, marriage, family and children. |
16th August 2007, 12:04 PM
| | fundamentally liberal
34
| | Join Date: 24th December 2003
Posts: 8,314
Blessings: 77,849
Reps: 115,113,221,087,288,640 (power: 115,113,221,087,306) | | Originally Posted by Nadiine I'd also like to ask you this, if the Govt. doesn't demand a formal certificate of marriage, HOW DO THEY RELAY THE DEFINITION OF WHAT MARRIAGE IS? Having sex with the person? Living Together for one week? Or jumping over a basket?
Who cares how the state defines you? In Belgium, a lot of churches are defined as cults, but that doesn't mean they must see themselves as cults.
I certainly have read nowhere in the bible that you're not married unless the state says you are.
__________________ Originally Posted by Paul To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> Why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? |
16th August 2007, 12:22 PM
| | Legend
| | Join Date: 14th April 2006 Location: Obama: 53% deserve him ;)
Posts: 52,392
Blessings: 143,270 My Mood
Reps: 6,688,658,930,375,081 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by holo Who cares how the state defines you? In Belgium, a lot of churches are defined as cults, but that doesn't mean they must see themselves as cults.
I certainly have read nowhere in the bible that you're not married unless the state says you are.
Who cares? The Govt./States care becuz they are setting the standard of what THEY recognize as marriage.
Otherwise, the marriage of 1 man and his daughter is LAWFUL if they decide to marry. AND, the state has to view them as a married couple.
Same with marrying underage kids (depending on other laws for age issues), or animals, or 4 other spouses, or homosexuals etc.
The country/state authorities set in law what constitutes a "family unit"/marriage union - in other words, what they define and recognize as a family.
Otherwise, anyone can marry anyone, anything and however many they want of them and there's no restriction or definition of a family.
The FAMILY MODEL is from God: it's 1 man and 1 woman who then produce their offspring together. |
16th August 2007, 12:36 PM
|  | 2 Corinthians 5:21
35
| | Join Date: 26th May 2005
Posts: 4,961
Blessings: 101,159,955 My Mood 
Reps: 442,862,106,153,140,992 (power: 442,862,106,153,154) | | Originally Posted by TheFathersDaughter Define marriage. Marriage, ultimately, is just a paper stating it officially in front of an audience. Some people insist it's a commitment made to God, but you do not need the ceremony to both promise God you will be with each other forever. If that were the case, Christian faith would not allow non-Christians to marry each other. Two people cohabiting could've already made the promise of marriage to God but don't want to the rest of the world getting involved (which I can understand since some people don't want to deal with that sort of drama or pressure).
No. Marriage is a convenant relationship between the man and the woman with the blessing of God. Read the OT for proof so you'll understand what it means to have and keep a convenant.
__________________
"If you are superficial about sin, then you will also be superficial about salvation." - John MacArthur
"The reason why nothing else satisfies is because we weren't made for it. We were made for God." - R.W. Glenn
"The most terrible warning to impenitent men in all the world is the death of Christ. For if God spared not His only Son, on whom was only laid imputed sin, will He spare sinners whose sins are their own?" - Charles H. Spurgeon
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
16th August 2007, 12:57 PM
| | fundamentally liberal
34
| | Join Date: 24th December 2003
Posts: 8,314
Blessings: 77,849
Reps: 115,113,221,087,288,640 (power: 115,113,221,087,306) | | Originally Posted by Nadiine Who cares? The Govt./States care becuz they are setting the standard of what THEY recognize as marriage.
Otherwise, the marriage of 1 man and his daughter is LAWFUL if they decide to marry.
I think it's cool that you're not allowed to marry underage kids (even though it's hard to defend that law from the bible).
But that's not the point. The point is how I and my partner sees us, the point is whether or not God has joined us together. If the state wants to call it a marriage, fine. If not, that's not a problem.
The state will never determine the nature of my relationships.
__________________ Originally Posted by Paul To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> Why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? |
16th August 2007, 02:27 PM
| | Senior Member
38 
| | Join Date: 7th December 2006
Posts: 768
Blessings: 107,487
Reps: 3,047,313 (power: 3,054) | | Originally Posted by PeaceLover02 Hi everyone. I know that a lot of conservative Christians believe that cohabitation or the living together of a man and a woman often who are in love is wrong. However, I don't understand why. Please provide Bible verses or quotes from tradition that prove that cohabitation is wrong and sinful. Hi you've expressed the view in a previous string that you do not consider premarital sex sinful so this may be a moot point to you. However, I'd observe that if a man and a woman are living together in the same space with no other room mates then everyone on the planet would simply assume they were having sex - Even if to you, he is just your roommate. There are things in Paul's writings that suggest that to the extent that we can, we should avoid situations that people might even THINK you are being sinful so as not to be a bad witness. Does God recognize common law marriages? I suspect he does. If you are living with only one person and have your whole life then i do not think the state's opinion of your marital status counts for much. if however you were taking in a different male roommate every month then you might want to consider what kind of witness that makes. You woon't make a good witness if everyone THINKS you're a hypocrite even if you are not ACTUALLY one, because no one will take your seriously if they think you are one.
|
16th August 2007, 03:27 PM
|  | The Revolution has Started
22 
| | Join Date: 3rd March 2007
Posts: 1,748
Blessings: 114,252
Reps: 40,130 (power: 48) | | Originally Posted by Dannager No, you follow both. God has no law on speeding, but I'm sure you try not to speed. God has no law against using animals to fight each other. God has no law on not drinking before the age of 21. God does not have hundreds of the laws that we men do, and yet you follow them (or else you'd be in jail right now).
You follow both. You just like pretending that you don't so that you can accuse people of the same and make them look bad because of it. Hypocrisy isn't well-liked here.
Common sense of course. Speeding leads to my own physical destruction or the destruction of others because of carelessness and God DOES have laws against murder and self mutilation. Same with not drinking before the age of 21 - self mutilation. Most laws you can say God did not create are made to emphasize the laws God did make. You do not follow both. | | |
| Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes |  Linear Mode |
| | |
