How can we up the numbers in the UK? [plus prayer request]

gtsecc · #31 13th August 2007, 01:52 PM

In the Roman Church, you are expected to go to the parish you live near. You are not really supposed to drive across town to one you "like."
To use the words of this threard - Their numbers are up.

pmcleanj · #32 13th August 2007, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by gtsecc

In the Roman Church, you are expected to go to the parish you live near... Their numbers are up.

Cite? Can you provide a reputable source documenting the claim that Roman Catholic numbers are up in the U.K.? I have read the opposite: This source states that in the last seven years (using figures published late in 2006; the 2007 Church census results not yet being published) the denominations worst hit by decline were Methodist and Roman Catholic (one analysis I read claimed attendance at Roman Catholic masses in the U.K. fell by a third. Furthermore, Christian Research, a religious think-tank, has recently reported that the overall decline in church attendance has been mitigated (though not reversed), not by enforcement of parish boundaries as you seem to be implying, but by significant imigration from ethnic groups with a greater tendancy toward church-going than the mainstream population. But looking more deeply at the analysis, the observed growth in, for example, African and Caribbean Evangelical Alliance congregations, doesn't support any claim that imitating Roman Catholic legalisms is a factor in church growth.

The Anglican Church of Canada recently published a formal correlative study between Church growth; and many, many aspects of liturgy and programming. And -- unfortunately for those of us who love the Prayerbook language, plainchant and plainsong, and traditional symbology -- the correlations between liturgy and church growth were NOT what we wish they were.

Contemporary music (particularly the use of drums!) is more likely to be associated with church growth than is organ music. Multiple services per Sunday are more likely to be associated with church growth than is having a single service.

The one thing I recall that is what I would expect, is that fully including children in the liturgical life of the congregation (which includes accomodating their needs when doing worship planning) does strongly correlate with church growth. And the other expected outcome I recall is that dissension and contentiousness are a strong negative correlative. Based on those two correlatives, I think I'm very interested in listening respectfully to what someone like AprilAngel says her needs and challenges are.

I'll post the link to the study again -- I posted it back in March (I think) in ebia's "new congregation" thread.

ChaliceThunder · #33 13th August 2007, 03:02 PM

I'll weigh in here again:

I think it can be a good thing to have either a variety of services (with a variety of styles of music and liturgy).

"Blended" worship, if thoughtfully put together, can also be tremendously uplifting.

But I think, as ministers, we need to understand this: no matter what style(s) we prefer, or in which "parish" we live, there are plenty of people out there who are yearning for a deeper relationship with God and God's People. (Many of them might even not know it yet)

If we are able to use modern technology and culture (combined with received tradition) in order to reach out to them, then we ought to do it.

It's called meeting them where they are. Our Savior is the one who set this example for us.

Timothy · #34 13th August 2007, 04:00 PM

I agree with Pamela and Chalice. What a surprise. I think I need to start keeping track of the threads that I've disagreed with Pamela in, 'cause I can't remember the last time that happened. I think I'm going to start a 'Pamela for Archbishop of Canterbury' scheme...

Tim

ebia · #35 13th August 2007, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by gtsecc

In the Roman Church, you are expected to go to the parish you live near. You are not really supposed to drive across town to one you "like."
To use the words of this threard - Their numbers are up.

And most of them have multiple services to choose from - including a Sat evening mass very often.

When we have different styles, we are proclaiming that Mass is good, when it suits your taste.

When we have one style we are proclaiming that Mass is good, when it suits our taste.

When we have different times, we are proclaiming that Mass is good, when it suits your schedule.

When we have different times, we are proclaiming that the Mass is good when it suits our schedule.

karen freeinchristman · #36 13th August 2007, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by gtsecc

Yes, and that is a good point.
I am not so sure our modern large churches are such a good idea. Maybe 150 to 200 is the ideal maximum size, after which a new building should be planted. Originally, you went to the church in your area - there was no church shopping. The jews near my parish walk to the synoguge because they won't operate machines on the sabboth. Small geographic parishes are really ideal.

Glen, you are not making any sense here. The question postulated was, what do you do when your parish church gets full to overflowing? Your answer, quite rightly, was 'plant a new church', to which my response was something like 'a new service time is the same as planting a new church' and you have now come back with the comment that everyone should attend the church that is in their parish. I have no qualms with that. What doesn't make sense is to build a whole new building in said parish simply to hold the extra people, when you could have a second (or third) service in the SAME building to hold the extra people. It is the same parish, but more people coming to the church. Choice, in this instance, definitely comes nowhere near heresy.

Originally Posted by ChaliceThunder

I'll weigh in here again:

I think it can be a good thing to have either a variety of services (with a variety of styles of music and liturgy).

"Blended" worship, if thoughtfully put together, can also be tremendously uplifting.

But I think, as ministers, we need to understand this: no matter what style(s) we prefer, or in which "parish" we live, there are plenty of people out there who are yearning for a deeper relationship with God and God's People. (Many of them might even not know it yet)

If we are able to use modern technology and culture (combined with received tradition) in order to reach out to them, then we ought to do it.

It's called meeting them where they are. Our Savior is the one who set this example for us.

pmcleanj · #37 14th August 2007, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by InnocentOdion

How can we as a church up the numbers of churchgoers in the UK? Are there some things we need to revise, update, or alter?

The Church in the United Kingdom is in the relatively special circumstance of being formally established. In many ways this is a good thing: every citizen has the support of the church; has access to the sacraments and to pastoral care; the historic and cultural treasures of the church are safeguarded by the state.

But establishment has its downside, too. It results in church attendance and observances becoming a matter of social probity rather than of passionate commitment to Christ. And then, when the social norms change -- as we are seeing with the rampantly growing secularism in the West -- so does Church attendance.

To paraphrase Scripture, when a Church is established as an instrument of societal norms, the Church becomes the "lump" instead of being the leaven in the lump.

A lot of the dropping church attendance that we are seeing is the falling away of that "lump". There are probably as many committed, passionate slaves of Christ attending Church today as there were fifty years ago -- perhaps more. But the uncommitted social-conformists who would have attended fifty years ago because it was the "done thing", are running marathons or going to the Zoo or sleeping in on Sunday.

Now, is that a bad thing?

As long as the Church was a force of social conformity, it rocked no boats and made little difference to the status quo. Now, though, the Spirit of God isn't being diluted and we're in a position actually to change things. We can examine our role in doing God's work in the world, find a clear mission for our congregation, and do it.

Have a look at this document, which is a research summary on which the report I was thinking of was based: http://fact.hartsem.edu/CongGrowth.pdf.

A clear mission statement strongly correlates to church growth.
A young, and culturally diverse congregation strongly correlates to church growth
A congregation that is willing to change correlates to church growth
Conflict correlates to declining church attendance
"Joyful" worship correlates to church growth
Multiple (four or more per week) worship services strongly correlates to church growth
Drums and percussion in worship correlates strongly to church growth
"Reverent" worship negatively correlates to church growth (yeah, I know, I don't like this one either, but there it is).
Recent major change to the style of worship correlates to church growth (I don't like this one either, but there it is, too)
Broad-based lay participation in recruiting new members correlates strongly to church growth.
Support groups correlate strongly to church growth
Multiple types of follow-up contacts to visitors correlates to church growth

higgs2 · #38 14th August 2007, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by karen freeinchristman

Glen, you are not making any sense here. The question postulated was, what do you do when your parish church gets full to overflowing? Your answer, quite rightly, was 'plant a new church', to which my response was something like 'a new service time is the same as planting a new church' and you have now come back with the comment that everyone should attend the church that is in their parish. I have no qualms with that. What doesn't make sense is to build a whole new building in said parish simply to hold the extra people, when you could have a second (or third) service in the SAME building to hold the extra people. It is the same parish, but more people coming to the church. Choice, in this instance, definitely comes nowhere near heresy.

I hope that they teach at least some basic financial concepts in seminary such as cash flow, etc.

Not that you need them, but we have seen a good example of how being bogged down in dogmatic blind following of some ethereal ideal might lead to a totally impractical way to "do church".

One service indeed. Build a bigger church indeed. Anyone who has ever been on a Vestry or served on a building committee can tell you that this is not just a superneat and easy way to sold a space problem.

But the latin thing, there's a great idea. Let's change our services to latin so that we don't have to hold services in a second language at a different time. Then everyone could not only worship together but learn latin together. I can just see the people storming the gates and beating down the doors to belong to that church.

norbie · #39 14th August 2007, 04:03 AM

Well first off I think we should praise God if we have to many people and there is not enough room for it in this one service, Allelluja!
But I think I have to go with Dear Karen, it is better to use the same building more often as build a new church. The home where I come from there was a service on the hour from 7.AM; 8AM; 9AM; 10AM and 11AM and evening at 5PM.
So I think also Dear Higgs is right with the economics and I do think that new Clergy should learn more of economic as well. Today, outreach cost lots of money. And the "plate" is not going to get more money, so the church must also look into economic and how to rise money for outreach.

Timothy · #40 14th August 2007, 04:15 AM

But the latin thing, there's a great idea. Let's change our services to latin so that we don't have to hold services in a second lanuage at a different time. Then everyone could not only worship together but learn lating together. I can just see the people storming the gated and beating down the doors to belong to that church.

Sorry, can't do that in the UK. The 39 articles prohibit it. See, there IS something good abotu the articles...