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  #41  
Old 23rd September 2003, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother Christman
Either you condemn abortion or by omission/indecision, you condone it. You're certainly entitled to do the latter if you must (and I will stand beside you to uphold your free-speech right to state your feelings, either way), but let's spare one another the rhetoric.
I do not believe in abortion, but I choose not to judge those who have abortions. It is up to God to condemm, not me. Y should I be they all knowing athourity? I am not; God is. I understand how God views the value of human life, and I adhere. Persecution is never an effective way to convince others of one's beliefs. Attempting to make others submit always ends in disaster. Making a difference begins with one person. I have choosen to start with myself. I now have a family a hubby and 2 girls. The value of human life can only reflect on them if my behavior reflects how much I value life. The value of human life will not be reflected if I condemm the lives of others who I think are making wrong choices. What I can do is live my life according to God. Judgement is up to Him.
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  #42  
Old 23rd September 2003, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by water_ripple
I understand how God views the value of human life, and I adhere.
Then you have no business being a part of anything that considers murder a choice. It's antithetical to what you've just said.

Please understand that I don't say this hatefully: I'm eager to prevent stumbling, especially that of my beloved family in Christ.

Jesus said "judge not...", but He also said "I come not to destroy the Law or the prophets but to fulfill." If He didn't give us a memo on an update (i.e. "an eye for an eye" changing to "turn the other cheek"), a given Law still stands. God is almighty and unchanging. He will remain so when our bones are dust.
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Last edited by Brother Christman; 23rd September 2003 at 05:37 PM.
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  #43  
Old 23rd September 2003, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother Christman
Then you have no business being a part of anything that considers murder a choice. It's antithetical to what you've just said. I don't say this hatefully - I'm eager to prevent stumbling, especially that of my beloved family in Christ.

Jesus said "judge not...", but He also said "I come not to destroy the Law or the prophets but to fulfill." If He didn't give us a memo on an update (i.e. "an eye for an eye" changing to "turn the other cheek"), a given Law still stands. God is almighty and unchanging. He will remain so when our bones are dust.
I do not consider anything that has to do with murder of a human a choice for myself. I try to present the reasons why I do not believe in anything that has to do with murder in an non-judgemental and non-offending way. Blaming and commdemnation seem to make only anger. If you can point out to me anywhere in the bible that Christians are required to pass judgement on others reveal it to me. I would welcome the lesson.

Last edited by water_ripple; 24th September 2003 at 12:36 AM.
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  #44  
Old 23rd September 2003, 06:37 PM
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water ripple: you understand my point, though, right? The proposal to institute this technology solely as a means to reduce the number of times a legal procedure is done seems unjust. All this money could be spent on all kinds of things that would help those who are already born. Clearly the money we allot to health care for the poor isn't very much, and results in substandard care; wouldn't this money, which is being used only to further certain political goals (undermining a controversial procedure), be better allocated to actual health care?

Last edited by burrow_owl; 23rd September 2003 at 06:38 PM.
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  #45  
Old 23rd September 2003, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by burrow_owl
water ripple: you understand my point, though, right? The proposal to institute this technology solely as a means to reduce the number of times a legal procedure is done seems unjust. All this money could be spent on all kinds of things that would help those who are already born. Clearly the money we allot to health care for the poor isn't very much, and results in substandard care; wouldn't this money, which is being used only to further certain political goals (undermining a controversial procedure), be better allocated to actual health care?
I think women should be fully aware of their options and the procedures which are entailed. I do not think it is right to force beliefs on another, but if one is to make a fully informed choice the consequences of both sides should be presented. I thought your idea of posters was great advice...Posters depicting a fetus in the womb, and posters depicting abortions early and late. When one is presented with both sides of an issue one is able to make a fully informed choice. If the political system would present both sides of the issue then people would be fully aware to make informed choices, and the issue would really be about options. The picture would not be figuratively clear, but visually clear.
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  #46  
Old 23rd September 2003, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Firscherscherling
Okey-dokey. As with the last issue, I'll defer to the doctors and nurses for my opinion, and I'll let you just hang on to what you want to beleive based on...well, I have no idea.
How about the 2 doctors I talked to and the fact that I and my best friend work at a sonography school.

But whatever.
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  #47  
Old 23rd September 2003, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by water_ripple
I do not believe in abortion, but I choose not to judge those who have abortions.
What turned me from having a libertarian "if they want to do it, that is their problem" attitude toward abortion was the internet.

I had no idea how radical the pro-abortion forces are. They howl when the most reasonable restrictions on abortion are introduced (telling parents if a child seeks an abortion for instance, or having a short waiting period, or banning partial birth abortion). They want abortion on demand and they would like taxpayers to pay for it.

The mean comments about sonargrams are typical of the mindset. They don't want "choice", they want abortion. Why, I can't fathom. Money, racism or a twisted mind is all I can figure.

Also noticed that these people want "choice" in abortion but in little else--a woman can "choose" to abort her baby but the extreme left wing pro-abortionists howl if a mother wants to "choose" where her children goes to school.

The same people are also pushing euthanasia and that is a concern. Doctors, patients and families have gently, if needed, allowed or helped people to end suffering forever. It happens everyday in America. But the abortion crowd wants it codified into law. That is extremely dangerous.

So...from being someone out of the debate, over the last 7 years I've, reluctantly entered it. The pro-abortionists must be resisted. They affect more than just those who have abortions. They affect all of society and they are evil.

Note of apology to anyone who may have replied to me: This forum freezes my old browser often. Some threads I cannot load at all. I'm not ignoring anyone, I simply cannot see what you wrote (if you did). Anyone have a suggestion on how to fix this...PM me. I probably won't be able to reply again on this thread...took me half an hour to get in this time. Other threads are fine and at some times of the day, I have no problem.
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  #48  
Old 23rd September 2003, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by water_ripple
I do not consider anything that has to do with murder a choice for myself. I try to present the reasons why I do not believe in anything that has to do with murder in an non-judgemental and non-offending way. Blaming and commdemnation seem to make only anger. If you can point out to me anywhere in the bible that Christians are required to pass judgement on others reveal it to me. I would welcome the lesson.
We're not be "lukewarm", are we? What about being stumbling blocks? What good is "salt" that's lost it's flavor?

I'll ask the same of you: Perhaps you can show me somewhere other than "judge not..." (which in context, must be viewed in tandem with "I come not to destroy the law or the prophets...") that says we're supposed to remain neutral on every issue unless it's in our face? Should we stand idly by as children are burned with cigarette lighters, too because we fear being judgemental?
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  #49  
Old 23rd September 2003, 11:06 PM
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  #50  
Old 24th September 2003, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BrotherChristman
We're not be "lukewarm", are we? What about being stumbling blocks? What good is "salt" that's lost it's flavor?

I'll ask the same of you: Perhaps you can show me somewhere other than "judge not..." (which in context, must be viewed in tandem with "I come not to destroy the law or the prophets...") that says we're supposed to remain neutral on every issue unless it's in our face? Should we stand idly by as children are burned with cigarette lighters, too because we fear being judgemental?


On the subject of abortion I do not believe in it. I try not to judge others. I have found that it is better to appeal to humanity than it is to point fingers about who is right and who is wrong. I realise that the value of life is greatly decreasing these days, and it is truly disturbing. The fact is God gave every human the right of freewill. People are responsible for their own actions, and will be judged accordingly. Because I have a different approach I am lukewarm? Some of the people around here reject Christ because they are persecuted by Christians. I apologize that I cannot participate in persecution. My position on abortion is made clear in my posts, and I have been persecuted to appealing to the humanity of others. Persecuted in fact to the point where some have labeled it as a non existant argument, but guess what people cannot ignore the appeal of humanity. It is the thing that binds all people together no matter what they believe. I think if a woman is going to have an abortion she should be fully aware of the procedures, and what happens to the child. Some people are offended by the truth no matter what it looks like.

Burrow_owl who is pro-choice gave a suggestion of putting up posters of one's options. He of course meant to simply put a sonogram on the wall. Not an offensive way of display. I took it a step further and said Yes I think this is a wonderful idea. Place the pictures up of all the options and the procedures of abortion. The truth is the truth is it not even if it is graphic? A fetus in the womb and the exact procedures of what happens when a fetus is aborted. I think the pictures would speak for themselves. This is what happens if you have the child and this is what happens if you abort the child. I think if a person can still have an abortion when fully aware of the facts on a clear conscience then God will judge them accordingly. Not me it is not my place. Besides how is going to help anyone who wants to change their life around to be persecuted and shamed by Christians? Ya know if a person is shamed and deemed unworthy b/c they have made bad decisions in their life a little bit of love goes a long way. If one reaches with love one recieves love. If one reaches with commdemnation one recieves condemmnation. If you do not believe me read the entire discussion. Has my salt lost it's flavor b/c I reach with love and not commdemnation?
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