| Christian Apologetics A forum to discuss the systematic defense of the Christian belief system with other Christians. |  | | 
4th August 2007, 02:24 AM
|  | The Dude Abides

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Reps: 9,094,665,067,354,249,216 (power: 9,094,665,067,354,284) | | | I had that experience, or one like it... with some very pure & strong microdot LSD on Halloween '71.
I knew the psychedelics would socialy invalidate the legitimacy, so I managed to reproduce the experience without it about 6 months later, but the resulting instability earned me a diagnosis of schizophrenia & an 8 month stay 'on the ward'.
I had read in Look magazine that these people at Ivy League schools were saying you could "see God" on LSD. http://www.csp.org/practices/entheog...od_friday.html
I agree with Rasta that our experiences are a product of our belief, but I probably disagree with him about what our belief is a product of.
__________________ Dear Optimist, Pessimist, & Realist...
While you were arguing about the glass of water, I drank it!
Sincerely,
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4th August 2007, 03:56 PM
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Reps: 1,569 (power: 11) | | Originally Posted by Rasta Sorry to butt in Sandman, as this wasn't directed at me. If I saw physical proof of god, I would certainly believe. I would have to be convinced that it was not a product of my own mind.
So that time when I saw god when I was eighteen can probably be attributed to the psychadellic mushrooms I ate rather than a product of reality.
Personally I have had two or three "curses" put on me in my lifetime.
One was on a trip to Haiti. Needless to say, it had absolutely no effect on me. The reason? I didn't believe it would have any effect on me. The natives however, do have physical reaction to "curses". They can break out in hives, become "possessed", or other physical outlashes. This is because they do believe.
Now consider this same dynamic with your belief. Is it impossible that the feeling in your chest (you know the one) the "power of god" washing over you. It's blissful isn't it? It makes you feel good. Are you 100% convinced that it could no way, no how be a product of you mind based on your belief? I, for one, am not. Rasta I won’t discount that theory in relationship to the entire Christian community but…………. lets think about that based on the entire community. You would almost be saying that everybody {Christian} who gets that feeling, would in theory, have developed that in their mind …..that doesn’t make much sense based on the millions of Christians. I think if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be the power of God (I’ll bet that’s a saying not to many people use) As far as feelings I have really only had one that was maybe in line with what you describe. That was the time I first spoke in tongues. To me it was better than the best “smack” I ever shot. Now I know there is a voluminous amount of information, misinformation, skepticism, disagreement, and down right absurd behavior associated with tongues so let me clarify what I speak. The first time I spoke in tongues I never had heard of it, or ever heard it done. I was reading a book “Power in Praise” that said you could do it, so I did it. It did not tell me what it was, or what it sounded like, so I had no prior information to corrupt or sway me in any direction, or to give me any inkling that it was a “product of my mind” There are just too many things that have happened in my life to suggest anything but the power of God. In addition to what I wrote to Questionist about people being raised from the dead, here are a few other things that have happened …………. Fell off a 200’ cliff and landed on my feet as soft as if I were taking a step. Coming up over a hill in the middle of winter and meeting a V snow plow and driving right through it ….and guess what, the snow plow drive became a believer, as did my brother who was behind me. Ministering to my daughter who had a compound fracture on her hand and watching the bones go back and the skin heal up {that was after I threw up, man it was gross} Being shot with a double barrel 12 gage from 10 feet away and having the outline pattern of my body on the garage door …. never getting hit. A week later the guy who shot at me came back, and became a believer. That all happened in one day …………….just kidding…. but I could go on and on ……so if these are a product of my mind, I say give me more product {or more shrooms} I would like you to say something. First say that God has given me the gift of the product of my mind and now say God has given me the gift of holy spirit …………..Truthfully, doesn’t the latter have a better ring to it.
__________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ God Bless Sandman
Last edited by sandman; 4th August 2007 at 06:42 PM.
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4th August 2007, 03:59 PM
|  | Senior Member
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Reps: 1,569 (power: 11) | | Hi Questionist Would you be able to love your father if you never saw or talked to him? It does sound a bit preposterous from a logical point of view; I’ll give you that. No you can’t throw your arms around him, but He does speak, He does talk, albeit many times I question people who say they ask God things like “should I have macaroni or peanut butter & jelly for lunch today”. God has given us common sense to make decisions, He has given us His Word, which lays out our lifestyle, and all things that pertain to life and Godliness. He has given us the gift of holy spirit which enables us to walk with power from on high operating the nine manifestation {erroneously called gifts} listed in I Corinthians 12:9-11. I always take a step back when people start spouting out that “God told me this” and “God told me that” and I run the other way when those people tell me “God told me to tell you” God will always tell you first ……..not others. But yes, I can love a Father I never saw because he first loved me. It’s not a feeling, it’s a way of life ………..to many people go by feelings …hell I can get a good feeling drinking tequila. God doesn’t promise us that were going to feel good, only joy, which is an inside job. Feeling good is a decision of the mind in any situation, it’s an attitude of the heart. Not to say that that at times people can’t feel all warm and fuzzy all over in their walks with God, but it’s no guarantee. God does know you inside and out and he knows what it will take to reach you. I am assuming by your answer that I have your permission to set this in motion ….if not let me know. What I will guarantee is that at some time, I don’t know exactly when, it could be tomorrow or a year from now God will make manifest the spiritual realm to you. I am not trying to convert you just open the door; what you do from that point is up to you. I know this may seem quite pretentious of me but “God told me to tell you” …..just kidding ……...my prayers are always answered. The time frame is not up to me, but you will know when it happens. It may not be cataclysmic, it may be simple and subtle, but in your heart and mind you will know.
__________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ God Bless Sandman | 
4th August 2007, 08:01 PM
| | Senior Member
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Reps: 361 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by sandman Hi Questionist It does sound a bit preposterous from a logical point of view; I’ll give you that. No you can’t throw your arms around him, but He does speak, He does talk, albeit many times I question people who say they ask God things like “should I have macaroni or peanut butter & jelly for lunch today”. God has given us common sense to make decisions, He has given us His Word, which lays out our lifestyle, and all things that pertain to life and Godliness.
So...he's still the absent father in the analogy.....but he left a few scraps of paper with some instructions on it for us to read (despite the fact that he could show up at any time and talk to us directly)......that's a loving father? He has given us the gift of holy spirit which enables us to walk with power from on high operating the nine manifestation {erroneously called gifts} listed in I Corinthians 12:9-11.
Well...I used to "feel the Holy Spirit" when I was a Christian, however, looking back...the feeling was nothing more than warm tinglies I got when I concentrated on God. Nothing more than a self-induced brain state, probably caused by the release of endorphins (which are often released during religious experiences).
Once again, nothing is stopping God from revealing himself directly to each and every human, to share his love with us directly......but instead he chooses to hide in the shadows while we are all left to discuss whether or not he even exists. And then, if some of us do choose to believe he exists, we're expected to "love" him.....in reality, all we can ever "love" is the God that we imagine in our minds. I always take a step back when people start spouting out that “God told me this” and “God told me that” and I run the other way when those people tell me “God told me to tell you” God will always tell you first ……..not others. But yes, I can love a Father I never saw because he first loved me.
But how do you know he loved you first? He demonstrates none of the tenets of love actively, and the only record of him "loving you first" was jotted down by men nearly 2000 years ago. He didn't even have the decency to do it himself!
And even so, if I wrote a book about a person, and described every part of them in meticulous detail, could you begin to love them simply by reading the book (and without ever meeting them in person)? No...all you would be loving would be your conception of that person, based on the book. Experiencial knowledge is different then factual knowledge, and I think love is definitely something that grows from experiencial knowledge of another person....not from factual knowledge. It’s not a feeling, it’s a way of life ………..to many people go by feelings …hell I can get a good feeling drinking tequila. God doesn’t promise us that were going to feel good, only joy, which is an inside job. Feeling good is a decision of the mind in any situation, it’s an attitude of the heart. Not to say that that at times people can’t feel all warm and fuzzy all over in their walks with God, but it’s no guarantee.
I agree...many people fall away from Christianity because eventually the warm-fuzzies subside. God does know you inside and out and he knows what it will take to reach you. I am assuming by your answer that I have your permission to set this in motion ….if not let me know. What I will guarantee is that at some time, I don’t know exactly when, it could be tomorrow or a year from now God will make manifest the spiritual realm to you.
If God loved me, why would he wait? What if I step outside today and get hit by a car?
Plenty of athiests/agnostics/seekers die every day without ever having God revealing himself to them, despite the fact that if He did....they would probably give their lives to him in an instant. I am not trying to convert you just open the door; what you do from that point is up to you. I know this may seem quite pretentious of me but “God told me to tell you” …..just kidding ……...my prayers are always answered. The time frame is not up to me, but you will know when it happens. It may not be cataclysmic, it may be simple and subtle, but in your heart and mind you will know.
That's cool....I understand the mindset you have since I would have said the same thing to a non-believer 5 years ago....so I appreciate your concern, whether or not God ever decides to show up (assuming he exists in the first place).
Last edited by theQuestionist; 4th August 2007 at 08:07 PM.
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4th August 2007, 08:14 PM
|  | The Dude Abides

| | Join Date: 19th November 2002 Location: On The Prairie
Posts: 22,629
Blessings: 28,088,450 My Mood
Reps: 9,094,665,067,354,249,216 (power: 9,094,665,067,354,284) | | | great lurkin' this SO beats the usual contentious stuff I see between different camps.
Thanks to both you guys.
__________________ Dear Optimist, Pessimist, & Realist...
While you were arguing about the glass of water, I drank it!
Sincerely,
The Opportunist To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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6th August 2007, 12:11 PM
|  | Senior Veteran 30 
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Reps: 1,362,991,051,655 (power: 1,362,991,063) | | I won’t discount that theory in relationship to the entire Christian community but…………. lets think about that based on the entire community. You would almost be saying that everybody {Christian} who gets that feeling, would in theory, have developed that in their mind …..that doesn’t make much sense based on the millions of Christians. I think if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be the power of God (I’ll bet that’s a saying not to many people use)
Do these millions of Christians have minds? If yes, I don't see the point that you are making. We certainly know that populatity or common view do not make truth. Millions of people used to believe that the earth was flat. What does that prove beyond perspective?
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck right?
So rationaly, if it feels like the power of god, looks like nothing, sounds like nothing, it must be the power of god? I don't follow this logic. The first time I spoke in tongues I never had heard of it, or ever heard it done. I was reading a book “Power in Praise” that said you could do it, so I did it. It did not tell me what it was, or what it sounded like, so I had no prior information to corrupt or sway me in any direction, or to give me any inkling that it was a “product of my mind”
I would say the power of suggestion is a powerful thing. You read it first, thus the idea enters your mind. I don't think you sufficiantly proved that it could NOT have been a product of your mind. Fell off a 200’ cliff and landed on my feet as soft as if I were taking a step.
Coming up over a hill in the middle of winter and meeting a V snow plow and driving right through it ….and guess what, the snow plow drive became a believer, as did my brother who was behind me. Ministering to my daughter who had a compound fracture on her hand and watching the bones go back and the skin heal up {that was after I threw up, man it was gross} Being shot with a double barrel 12 gage from 10 feet away and having the outline pattern of my body on the garage door …. never getting hit. A week later the guy who shot at me came back, and became a believer.
Thoes are crazy stories. Crazy things do happen though. I have to admit that I am skepticle of your claims. I have heard many crazy stories. Ones that apparently defy physics. Freak occurances happen though. They also happen in ways that have negative implication too.
I've read a newspaper article were a man tripped on a curb and sustained a lethal head injury. He was in good shape and not innebreated. (claimed the article)
I'm not saying that they did not happen. Just that unlikely things do happen. | 
6th August 2007, 12:57 PM
| | Junior Member
 | | Join Date: 29th July 2007 Location: Germany
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Reps: 329 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by AngieBaby77 I always thought that our personal preferences and personality were from the soul. Now I am really struggling. I thought the soul makes us who we are, but if a brain injury can change our personality and preferences what does that mean for the soul? Do we not have one? I am very distressed about this concept. I hate to think we are nothing but our brains and bodies.
Can someone help me with this question?
Thanks!
Angela
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength."
Since the Bible differentiates them, let's examne what each really means:
1. Heart - feelings, emotions, the thing inside of you which causes you to cry, to sing, and to persevere through trials and tribulations.
2. Mind - what you think with, your rational being.
3. Soul - that part of you which is saved or lost depending upon the status of your salvation.
4. Strength - your body (muscles, tissue, bones, etc.)
Obviously, the heart and the mind both stem from the brain - but not the same brain. It's your forebrain which does all the rational thinking, and your mid-brain in which you experience most of your emotions (heart). The lower brain simply controls bodily functions, including higher-level reflexes.
That leaves the soul, the part of you that God knew even before you were formed in the womb. That's the part of you that will never change.
The heart waxes and wanes - even the Bible considers it fleeting, just as it considers it a wellspring of life. Great potential as a resource, but not much in the way of direction.
The mind provides the direction, sort of tempers the heart, so to speak.
The body can become stronger, or weaker, eventually the latter, before, in the end, failing entirely.
So your friend with the TBI probably had her mind damaged, as the heart, being of the mid-brain, isn't nearly as easily damaged. And, as with all damage, there is change.
But we all change, mostly through life's experiences. Her change was simply a bit greater, perhaps, and more abrupt. But it's still her, her heart, on the inside, from which she finds the wellspring of her life. | 
6th August 2007, 01:20 PM
|  | Senior Veteran 30 
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Reps: 1,362,991,051,655 (power: 1,362,991,063) | | Originally Posted by InFathersArms "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength."
Since the Bible differentiates them, let's examne what each really means:
1. Heart - feelings, emotions, the thing inside of you which causes you to cry, to sing, and to persevere through trials and tribulations.
2. Mind - what you think with, your rational being.
3. Soul - that part of you which is saved or lost depending upon the status of your salvation.
4. Strength - your body (muscles, tissue, bones, etc.)
Obviously, the heart and the mind both stem from the brain - but not the same brain. It's your forebrain which does all the rational thinking, and your mid-brain in which you experience most of your emotions (heart). The lower brain simply controls bodily functions, including higher-level reflexes.
That leaves the soul, the part of you that God knew even before you were formed in the womb. That's the part of you that will never change.
The heart waxes and wanes - even the Bible considers it fleeting, just as it considers it a wellspring of life. Great potential as a resource, but not much in the way of direction.
The mind provides the direction, sort of tempers the heart, so to speak.
The body can become stronger, or weaker, eventually the latter, before, in the end, failing entirely.
So your friend with the TBI probably had her mind damaged, as the heart, being of the mid-brain, isn't nearly as easily damaged. And, as with all damage, there is change.
But we all change, mostly through life's experiences. Her change was simply a bit greater, perhaps, and more abrupt. But it's still her, her heart, on the inside, from which she finds the wellspring of her life.
So how does the soul fit into that equation?
I saw that you identified it for what you believe it is.
What properties does the soul have that manifests in the person? (ie what distinguishes one soul from another)
Everything else can be described as body. Your brain is a part of your body that controlls it. Your outlook, perception, emotions, and ideals are all be represented by brain functions.
I see no need for the soul to be placed in the equation. | 
6th August 2007, 02:46 PM
|  | Senior Member 48  | | Join Date: 29th August 2005 Location: Telford,Shropshire,England
Posts: 2,371
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Reps: 107,451,931,333,771,136 (power: 107,451,931,333,781) | | Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength."
Since the Bible differentiates them, let's examne what each really means:
1. Heart - feelings, emotions, the thing inside of you which causes you to cry, to sing, and to persevere through trials and tribulations.
2. Mind - what you think with, your rational being.
3. Soul - that part of you which is saved or lost depending upon the status of your salvation.
4. Strength - your body (muscles, tissue, bones, etc.)
Obviously, the heart and the mind both stem from the brain - but not the same brain. It's your forebrain which does all the rational thinking, and your mid-brain in which you experience most of your emotions (heart). The lower brain simply controls bodily functions, including higher-level reflexes.
That leaves the soul, the part of you that God knew even before you were formed in the womb. That's the part of you that will never change.
The heart waxes and wanes - even the Bible considers it fleeting, just as it considers it a wellspring of life. Great potential as a resource, but not much in the way of direction.
The mind provides the direction, sort of tempers the heart, so to speak.
The body can become stronger, or weaker, eventually the latter, before, in the end, failing entirely.
So your friend with the TBI probably had her mind damaged, as the heart, being of the mid-brain, isn't nearly as easily damaged. And, as with all damage, there is change.
But we all change, mostly through life's experiences. Her change was simply a bit greater, perhaps, and more abrupt. But it's still her, her heart, on the inside, from which she finds the wellspring of her life.
Sorry, but the above definitions are in adequate.
Firstly, biblically speaking, we are not made up of 'parts' but we are a unity with 'soul', 'spirit', 'body', 'flesh', 'mind' etc being aspects of a whole person.
Your definition of 'soul' is not in keeping with scripture.
Lets look at these verses:
Genesis 2:7 ... and man became a living soul..
That means the whole person
Deuteronomy 12:23 .. for the life (soul) is in the blood.
(Fundamentally defines soul as life)
Numbers 23:10 let my soul die the death of the righteous, let my end be like theirs!
There is no immortal or eternal quality about the word soul (Hebrew Nephesh) anywhere in the bible.
I could post a lot more!
__________________ Shalom
Mike King
"Each of us, a cell of awareness, imperfect and incomplete. Genetic blends with uncertain ends on a fortune hunt thats far too fleet.." Neil Peart, Rush. | 
6th August 2007, 02:51 PM
|  | Senior Veteran 30 
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Reps: 1,362,991,051,655 (power: 1,362,991,063) | | Originally Posted by Mikecpking Sorry, but the above definitions are in adequate.
Firstly, biblically speaking, we are not made up of 'parts' but we are a unity with 'soul', 'spirit', 'body', 'flesh', 'mind' etc being aspects of a whole person.
Your definition of 'soul' is not in keeping with scripture.
Lets look at these verses:
Genesis 2:7 ... and man became a living soul..
That means the whole person
Deuteronomy 12:23 .. for the life (soul) is in the blood.
(Fundamentally defines soul as life)
Numbers 23:10 let my soul die the death of the righteous, let my end be like theirs!
There is no immortal or eternal quality about the word soul (Hebrew Nephesh) anywhere in the bible.
I could post a lot more!
Very interesting.
So from a literal standpoint, once you die, your soul would cease to exsist, based on soul=life. |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |