Question about the brain and the soul...

sandman · #21 2nd August 2007, 09:19 PM

Questionist
Please don’t take anything I say as being critical. I’m not. I understand your position and you have every right to hold that, as do I …… mine.
I think you are missing my point but at the same time you do recognize it; that is. As Christians we are asked to measure the Bible against science, which you yourself say is fallible. Now regardless of what you think of the Bible being full of errors and contradictions we are speaking of two different realms You have to see to believe, where as I believe, and then see. The Bible deals with spiritual realm .……science deals with the physical realm; you can’t compare the two. But many times, as in this thread Christians are asked to prove it scientifically…………. spiritual knowledge can be ascertained but it cannot be scientifically analyzed. There is no possible way I can conclusively satisfy the scientific mind with spiritual matters.
Physically it is impossible for someone who is dead to be raised, but I believe Jesus Christ was raised, and I have see others including my two year old daughter raised from the dead. Science would try to analyze and give it explanation ….I don’t need one ….I just believe.
My question to you is: do you think you can convince me to forsake my belief with anything you or science throws at me ….no more than I am going to change your position on what you believe; and that is fine with me. So to start a thread where we could volley about what you believe are contradictions and what I know are truths in the Word would be to no avail for either of us, however if you so start a thread I will chime in.

theQuestionist · #22 2nd August 2007, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by sandman

I think you are missing my point but at the same time you do recognize it; that is. As Christians we are asked to measure the Bible against science, which you yourself say is fallible. Now regardless of what you think of the Bible being full of errors and contradictions we are speaking of two different realms You have to see to believe, where as I believe, and then see. The Bible deals with spiritual realm .……science deals with the physical realm; you can’t compare the two. But many times, as in this thread Christians are asked to prove it scientifically…………. spiritual knowledge can be ascertained but it cannot be scientifically analyzed. There is no possible way I can conclusively satisfy the scientific mind with spiritual matters.

I guess what I'm saying is, there's no such thing as the spiritual realm (at least, no evidence for it).....so why consider it at all?

It would be the same if I took the story about leprechauns and said "science doesn't deal with leprechauns, and leprechauns don't deal with science"....when the real question should be, why do you believe in leprechauns in the first place?

Physically it is impossible for someone who is dead to be raised, but I believe Jesus Christ was raised, and I have see others including my two year old daughter raised from the dead.

Hmm...

Science would try to analyze and give it explanation ….I don’t need one ….I just believe.

So if science could offer a rational explanation for why your daughter may have come back to life...you would not believe it? Instead, you would posit the occurence of the event to the actions of a mythical being?

My question to you is: do you think you can convince me to forsake my belief with anything you or science throws at me

I have no interest in deconverting you. I'm just looking for answers, and presenting the ones I've found so far.

So to start a thread where we could volley about what you believe are contradictions and what I know are truths in the Word would be to no avail for either of us, however if you so start a thread I will chime in.

Well, if you are going to come to the thread with the presupposition that what you believe is "true" and what everyone else believes is false, then you are correct....starting such a thread would be pointless.

sandman · #23 3rd August 2007, 12:19 AM

Questionist

Prior to getting into the Word I was an unbeliever, a self proclaimed Atheist. Being raised an RC I left the Church at 16 after throwing a smoke bomb into the penalty box (confessional) of the priest and wedging the door shut, long story, I was a little ticked off..
For entertainment I would go to O’Hare airport wait for Christians or Buddhist {they use to be all over years ago} to try to witness to me and punch em out. Never got much resistance from security, they somewhat turned a blind eye to that …..man I was a jerk.
Though a series of events I got into satanic worship and ended up becoming a ranking priest in a Chicago coven.
When you speak of the spiritual realm, I was of the same mind frame as you before getting involved in Satanism, but that quickly changed. I learned that the spiritual realm albeit the dark side was as real as the physical. There is a whole host of devil spirits, and ranking devil spirits that control other devil spirits. I know much of this sounds obscure and possibly unrealistic to you, it was to me at first, but I adapted quickly and grew in the ranks
I could tell you about possession, commanding and operating devil spirits, and many other things, but my point is that I understand when you speak of there not being a spiritual realm. Unfortunately {or maybe not} I learned about that realm from the dark side first, the “maybe not” was because I saw the other side, Gods side, when I decided to call it quits. Long story, but I can tell you that Gods power is real and much more powerful than that of the devil spirits, and believe me there is much power and many things that take place in that realm. You don’t just walk away from that position without some sort of consequences, if not the ultimate consequence; but I did, only by the grace and power of God.
Anyhow, that is a long explanation on how I came to understand the spiritual realm

theQuestionist · #24 3rd August 2007, 12:32 AM

Hey sandman,

Here is a question for you then:

What evidence could you provide to substanciate the claim that all of those things you mentioned exist outside of the imaginations of men.

Interesting that you never hear of any athiests being possessed (at least, I haven't), or being attacked by spirits etc. It's only the people whose minds are already open to the power of suggestion that imagine the existence of those things.

Rick Otto · #25 3rd August 2007, 12:51 AM

You need him to.
But it don't work that way.
You are looking for intellectual satisfaction, and he was looking for soul satisfaction. Science cannot produce evidence of the soul.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I reckoned the RCC as pathological when I learned of transubstantiation. That was the last straw for me, but I hung in there for four more years until 8th grade before I started looking elsewhere.
One of the first things I happened to read about was Ceremonial Magic. I dismissed it immediately (noting it's remarkable ceremonial similarities), because I was street-wise enough to know that the only reason a being that had transdimensional locomotion wouldn't have me for lunch right then & there was because if he could get me dancing to his tune, I could lead him to a lifetime of lunches, saving me for desert, nevermind a chalk circle & some candles.

Way to much corroboration & some minimal experiences of my own led me to conclude that even if it was only imagination, enough imagination can kill you & produce other undesirable physical results.

fated · #26 3rd August 2007, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by AngieBaby77

Hello everyone. I am a new Christian struggling with this concept.

I read an article about a woman who sustained a traumatic brain injury and forgot years of her life -- also, her entire personality and preferences changed. She forgot her husband (they ended up divorcing because they no longer had anything in common) and even her daughter. She no longer liked the clothing she used to wear and preferred a different style. She said she wants to be who she was, but she cannot. She is like a different person now.

In the article it talked about how she struggled to retain her memories and how she had to keep being reminded of things. She will never have her full capacity back or her old "self".

My question relates to this: Her personality changed after the injury. She had brand new likes, dislikes and personality traits.

I always thought that our personal preferences and personality were from the soul. Now I am really struggling. I thought the soul makes us who we are, but if a brain injury can change our personality and preferences what does that mean for the soul? Do we not have one? I am very distressed about this concept. I hate to think we are nothing but our brains and bodies.

Can someone help me with this question?

Thanks!
Angela

She had a serious injury. Her actions seem to have occurred as a result of that. We cannot comprehend the injustice of the divorce without more information.

Finally, we cannot fathom God's judgment, only, we know that there is no Justice without Him. Insomuch as Final Judgment is His jurisdiction we cannot understand the effect this physical injury can have on the soul.

Rick Otto · #27 3rd August 2007, 02:30 AM

I sympathize.
Beyond my capacity to empathize.

sandman · #28 3rd August 2007, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by theQuestionist

Hey sandman,

Here is a question for you then:

What evidence could you provide to substanciate the claim that all of those things you mentioned exist outside of the imaginations of men.

Interesting that you never hear of any athiests being possessed (at least, I haven't), or being attacked by spirits etc. It's only the people whose minds are already open to the power of suggestion that imagine the existence of those things.

Hi Questionist

I wish that we were both in the Chicago area ….we could take a ride someplace that I believe would take imagination into reality ……………..

Let me ask:
If you could see the spiritual realm in action, be Gods or the adversary, something to the extent that you couldn’t pass it off as imagination or with science, would you then concede that it is real? And what would the effect be on your perspective towards God. In other words, would it change you in any way?

Rasta · #29 3rd August 2007, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by sandman

Hi Questionist

I wish that we were both in the Chicago area ….we could take a ride someplace that I believe would take imagination into reality ……………..

Let me ask:
If you could see the spiritual realm in action, be Gods or the adversary, something to the extent that you couldn’t pass it off as imagination or with science, would you then concede that it is real? And what would the effect be on your perspective towards God. In other words, would it change you in any way?

Sorry to butt in Sandman, as this wasn't directed at me. If I saw physical proof of god, I would certainly believe. I would have to be convinced that it was not a product of my own mind.

So that time when I saw god when I was eighteen can probably be attributed to the psychadellic mushrooms I ate rather than a product of reality.

Personally I have had two or three "curses" put on me in my lifetime.

One was on a trip to Haiti. Needless to say, it had absolutely no effect on me. The reason? I didn't believe it would have any effect on me. The natives however, do have physical reaction to "curses". They can break out in hives, become "possessed", or other physical outlashes. This is because they do believe.

Now consider this same dynamic with your belief. Is it impossible that the feeling in your chest (you know the one) the "power of god" washing over you. It's blissful isn't it? It makes you feel good. Are you 100% convinced that it could no way, no how be a product of you mind based on your belief? I, for one, am not.

theQuestionist · #30 3rd August 2007, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by sandman

Let me ask:
If you could see the spiritual realm in action, be Gods or the adversary, something to the extent that you couldn’t pass it off as imagination or with science, would you then concede that it is real? And what would the effect be on your perspective towards God. In other words, would it change you in any way?

Hi sandman,

Well, I would need some way of verifying that I wasn't simply hallucinating things...some way of "collecting" the data "shown" to me about the "spiritual" realm, so that it could be discussed with others, however...."God" being "all knowing" would know exactly the type of "evidence" that would convert me, because according to the Bible...he knows my mind inside and out. So if the God of the Bible did exist, I have no doubt that he'd be able to provide exactly the right type of evidence for his own existence.

And in that sense....I'm waiting

....interesting that God is apparantly all loving, yet he doesn't have the decency to show himself to myself or others....

Would you be able to love your father if you never saw or talked to him?