| Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too. |  | | 
19th September 2003, 02:36 PM
|  | The Examiner
 | | Join Date: 18th September 2003
Posts: 106
Blessings: 90,861
Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | Phillip E. Johnson - God of the Gaps? Hi,
I just have a question, perhaps some who are more familiar with the personal belief(s) of Mr. Phillip E. Johnson could answer this.
I have read one book by Mr. Phillip ('Defeating Darwinism'), I have to say that it presented some good points/arguments. But I was not able to hear what exactly it is that he believes to be the method by which we came to be.
Now, I just started reading his book "Darwin on Trial". And in it he presented some more information on what it is that he believes about our coming into being. In it he states that he believes in the evolutionary theory, but not a naturalistic evolution. He states that he believes that God could have created us in an instant, but that He used the process of evolution to do it, instead.
So far, I am on page 29 of the book, and he has already gone over a few examples and arguments of natural selection. In one example, he uses the famous 'black & light' moths, where during a period of time, one was more prevalent than the other, and this was due to the dangers that being a particular color posed. He also used an example of the sickle-celled Africans, where one particular mutation would seem to be an advantage in certain situations, while a disadvantage in another.
After that, he presents his case that these examples merely point out that 'under certain circumstances,' the particular traits would be advantageous to one group, as opposed to the other groups that do not carry these traits. However, this does not prove that natural selection is the cause for these traits, since these traits were already existent. In case I have misrepresented his statement, let me quote him:
"None of the 'proofs' provides any persuasive reason for believing that natural selection can produce new species, new organs, or other major changes, or even minor changes that are permanent. The sickle-cell anemia case , for example, merely shows that in special circumstances an apparently disadvantageous trait may not be eliminated from the population." (page 27)
Now, the thing that I wanted to ask was this. If Mr. Johnson believes that God used evolution, on the grand scale, then what is exactly that he is complaining about in this book, and these examples? Does not the fact that he believes in evolution mean that, he believes that all of these changes occured naturally? (Natural, implying, a rule or order that was followed; though unknown to us how it happens, which would account for our inability to duplicate it.)
Or does Mr. Johnson believe that God came down each time that a major change was to occur, and "magically" made it all happen? Isn't that what they call "God of the Gaps"? What exactly is this man's argument? It would see as if, one moment he is arguing for evolution, while at the other moment he is arguing for an unknown creation. He neither accepts creation-science, nor does he accept evolution. (And by evolution I do not mean darwinism, but the plain old evolution he claimed to believe.)
Can anyone tell me more about this guy? Could anyone answer a few of my questions? I know their website, but it is quite an intimidating place, so perhaps this place would be a bit more comfortable for me.
Blessings!
Last edited by Karaite; 19th September 2003 at 02:44 PM.
| 
20th September 2003, 12:32 PM
|  | The Examiner
 | | Join Date: 18th September 2003
Posts: 106
Blessings: 90,861
Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | heh,heh...
It seems no one here knows what I am talking about ...lol... | 
20th September 2003, 01:58 PM
|  | Child of Christ 51 
| | Join Date: 15th September 2003 Location: WI
Posts: 144
Blessings: 59,464
Reps: 1,993 (power: 10) | | I have not heard him untill just this week when a new member of the bible study I attend mentioned his name and the fact that he would be speaking at my church in the near future. www.elmbrook.org | 
20th September 2003, 02:56 PM
|  | The Examiner
 | | Join Date: 18th September 2003
Posts: 106
Blessings: 90,861
Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | | So, are you a theistic evolutionist? | 
20th September 2003, 03:23 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
 | | Join Date: 14th December 2002 Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,203
Blessings: 1,054,860
Reps: 1,389,323,873,000,013 (power: 1,389,323,873,013) | | Originally Posted by Karaite Hi,
I just have a question, perhaps some who are more familiar with the personal belief(s) of Mr. Phillip E. Johnson could answer this.
I have read one book by Mr. Phillip ('Defeating Darwinism'), I have to say that it presented some good points/arguments. But I was not able to hear what exactly it is that he believes to be the method by which we came to be.
One does not have to have a complete explanation and mechanism of an event in order to weigh the evidence of another explanation and find it faulty.
Now, I just started reading his book "Darwin on Trial". And in it he presented some more information on what it is that he believes about our coming into being. In it he states that he believes in the evolutionary theory, but not a naturalistic evolution. He states that he believes that God could have created us in an instant, but that He used the process of evolution to do it, instead.
That is not what he said at all. Here's what he said:
"I believe that a God exists who could create out of nothing if He wanted to do so, but who might have chosen to work through a natural evolutionary process instead."
So far, I am on page 29 of the book, and he has already gone over a few examples and arguments of natural selection. In one example, he uses the famous 'black & light' moths, where during a period of time, one was more prevalent than the other, and this was due to the dangers that being a particular color posed. He also used an example of the sickle-celled Africans, where one particular mutation would seem to be an advantage in certain situations, while a disadvantage in another.
After that, he presents his case that these examples merely point out that 'under certain circumstances,' the particular traits would be advantageous to one group, as opposed to the other groups that do not carry these traits. However, this does not prove that natural selection is the cause for these traits, since these traits were already existent. In case I have misrepresented his statement, let me quote him:
"None of the 'proofs' provides any persuasive reason for believing that natural selection can produce new species, new organs, or other major changes, or even minor changes that are permanent. The sickle-cell anemia case , for example, merely shows that in special circumstances an apparently disadvantageous trait may not be eliminated from the population." (page 27)
Now, the thing that I wanted to ask was this. If Mr. Johnson believes that God used evolution, on the grand scale, then what is exactly that he is complaining about in this book, and these examples? Does not the fact that he believes in evolution mean that, he believes that all of these changes occured naturally? (Natural, implying, a rule or order that was followed; though unknown to us how it happens, which would account for our inability to duplicate it.)
Or does Mr. Johnson believe that God came down each time that a major change was to occur, and "magically" made it all happen? Isn't that what they call "God of the Gaps"? What exactly is this man's argument? It would see as if, one moment he is arguing for evolution, while at the other moment he is arguing for an unknown creation. He neither accepts creation-science, nor does he accept evolution. (And by evolution I do not mean darwinism, but the plain old evolution he claimed to believe.)
Can anyone tell me more about this guy? Could anyone answer a few of my questions? I know their website, but it is quite an intimidating place, so perhaps this place would be a bit more comfortable for me.
Blessings!
Again, he doesn't "believe in evolution". Why don't you read the book to find out? I think it's a very well presented case. By the way, "creation-science" is different from intelligent design, which is a movement he is a part of.
Last edited by brewmama; 20th September 2003 at 03:34 PM.
| 
20th September 2003, 03:30 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
 | | Join Date: 14th December 2002 Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,203
Blessings: 1,054,860
Reps: 1,389,323,873,000,013 (power: 1,389,323,873,013) | | | Let me try this again. I cannot figure out how to break up the post into answerable bits.
YOU said, " Now, I just started reading his book "Darwin on Trial". And in it he presented some more information on what it is that he believes about our coming into being. In it he states that he believes in the evolutionary theory, but not a naturalistic evolution. He states that he believes that God could have created us in an instant, but that He used the process of evolution to do it, instead.
I said,
" That is not what he said at all. Here's what he said:
"I believe that a God exists who could create out of nothing if He wanted to do so, but who might have chosen to work through a natural evolutionary process instead." | 
20th September 2003, 03:35 PM
|  | Senior Veteran 27 
| | Join Date: 27th July 2003 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 3,393
Blessings: 91,101
Reps: 2,759 (power: 0) | | | As for the sickle celled anemia... I remember this from BIO II AP in HS, well hopefully I remember or my teacher would have a fit.
Sickle celled anemia prevents malaria. Malaria is deadly disease that is very, very common in that part of the world. To put it bluntly you're better off having this disease than having malaria. The people who had anemia had higher survival rates than those without. We know sickle cell anemia is genetic so they passed the trait down. Due to their higher survival rates this lead to higher reproduction rates and it became a common trait in the population.
That instance has nothing to do with God, it's simple genetics and adaptation to the enviroment thru natural selection.
From the brief glimpse of his writings in this post here's what I think he means.
-Small scale events like the white/black moth and sickle celled anemia do not require God. They are microevolution and arise in response to the enviroment. However he believes they are only temporary changes. He doesn't even believe in "...or even minor changes that are permanent"
-"Large" Changes such as new organs, new species, etc are the work of God. It seems he believes that God makes these and that evolution is not capable of it.
-He doesn't believe in evolution in the proper definition. Really would need to read more of his work to say with any certainty but from what I see here it seems he's stripped evolution down to it's bare minimum so that it is more of a variability of traits rather than changes.
Last edited by the_malevolent_milk_man; 20th September 2003 at 03:37 PM.
| 
20th September 2003, 03:37 PM
|  | Senior Veteran 27 
| | Join Date: 27th July 2003 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 3,393
Blessings: 91,101
Reps: 2,759 (power: 0) | | | bah, hit the wrong button | 
20th September 2003, 03:37 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
 | | Join Date: 14th December 2002 Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,203
Blessings: 1,054,860
Reps: 1,389,323,873,000,013 (power: 1,389,323,873,013) | | | He also takes on theistic evolutionists in the epilogue. See what you think after reading the book. | 
20th September 2003, 03:39 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
 | | Join Date: 14th December 2002 Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,203
Blessings: 1,054,860
Reps: 1,389,323,873,000,013 (power: 1,389,323,873,013) | | | Yes, he is very precise in the definitions of micro and macro evolution.
I don't know what you mean by the "proper definition" of evolution. I assume you mean naturalistic evolution.
Last edited by brewmama; 20th September 2003 at 03:41 PM.
|  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |