Do we really want an Anabaptist forum?

WayneinMaine · #21 16th July 2007, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Crazy Liz

I don't want to kick the conservatives out. It is you who want to kick me out.

Liz, you are the one who started a thread advocating for the actual elimination of this forum. I would prefer to see this forum remain as there are people (like conservative Anabaptist folks) who would not feel comfortable in Baptist forum. If the moderators do as you are advocating you would exclude people who are neither Catholic nor Protestant nor orthodox nor Baptist, nor Fundamentalist but who are conservative Anabaptists.

I don’t care one way or another about whether or not you leave this forum, I do care about seeing this forum continue to exist and seeing discussion from a historic Anabaptist position (neither Liberal Protestant nor Fundamentalist Protestant) happen, with those practices of conservative Anabaptists (like head covering, separation, and simple living) treated respectfully and represented fairly to those not familiar with traditional Brethren, Mennonite, Amish and Hutterite beliefs.

WayneinMaine · #22 16th July 2007, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by CelticRose

I don't want to kick you out, Liz.... but I feel like I'm being frozen out so I guess I'm not much help.

Do you want the Anabaptist forum eliminated and merged back in with the Baptists?

Crazy Liz · #23 16th July 2007, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by WayneinMaine

Liz, you are the one who started a thread advocating for the actual elimination of this forum. I would prefer to see this forum remain as there are people (like conservative Anabaptist folks) who would not feel comfortable in Baptist forum. If the moderators do as you are advocating you would exclude people who are neither Catholic nor Protestant nor orthodox nor Baptist, nor Fundamentalist but who are conservative Anabaptists.

I don’t care one way or another about whether or not you leave this forum, I do care about seeing this forum continue to exist and seeing discussion from a historic Anabaptist position (neither Liberal Protestant nor Fundamentalist Protestant) happen, with those practices of conservative Anabaptists (like head covering, separation, and simple living) treated respectfully and represented fairly to those not familiar with traditional Brethren, Mennonite, Amish and Hutterite beliefs.

Actually, I haven't advocated eliminating this forum or merging it back with the Baptist forum. I asked a question that I thought might provoke some outside-the-box discussion.

Some of the points you have raised, like the thought that Anabaptists are by nature sectarian (and Quakers are less so) are quite interesting. I wonder what that would mean for this forum. Might it mean that we should have a collection of sectarian subforums, that could split when differences arose within them? That might actually be an interesting experiment.

I asked the question as I did because this forum has an unusual history. It was not formed because a group formed that thought they needed a forum, and approached the administration of CF to ask for a place. It was formed because a larger group didn't want us. We never had an opportunity to create our own identity. In the first day or two after this forum was created, it was filled with posts about keeping liberals out. So basically the Quakers never felt welcome.

This forum started by the fiat of a number of people who never participated here. After the space was created, other people, like yourself, did move in. That is fine with me.

Now that CF has entered a new stage, a number of the people the Baptists intended to exile in this ghetto have come back to see what's happening in the space created for us. It looks like we still aren't wanted here.

My strong Anabaptist history and identity makes me realize it is OK to be pilgrims and strangers. My citizenship is no more in a message board than it is in a political nation. If the citizens of this forum are now ready to welcome me, or if they are interested in looking at the history of the place they have inhabited and seeing if the Holy Spirit may be leading a community to move, change, or welcome back their exiles, I am making myself available for this kind of discussion.

I chose the outside-the-box question I did because this forum has so few participants and so little traffic that it may not be viable without accepting more members. Several of the exiles have come here and offered to return, or to join the others here in pilgrimage, if that is your choice.

Here I am. Here is Joykins. We used to be part of B/A, but the exile left us homeless. We weren't even wanted in the ghetto. We again present ourselves to you. Would you like us to share with you about our pilgrimage and to share with us how you have formed a community here? Is the community you've formed one that perhaps now might have a place for us? Or have your attempts to form a community not been completely successful? What do you need? Is there something we can offer?

We can invite you to join us in pilgrimaging. You can invite us to share your home. Or we could visit together for a while and just see what happens. I am a pilgrim and a stranger, and I offer you whatever I have gained in my pilgrimage. Would you like to see what I have to offer?

CelticRose · #24 16th July 2007, 04:26 PM

Wayne, I'm not Anabaptist so your position effectively excludes me despite the fact I am reasonably conservative in my theological views. This has been the only forum where I have had some things in common ~ & I've wandered into most of the forums looking for a good fit, so no I don't particularly want it disbanded. However I'm not for being exclusive either.

tulc · #25 16th July 2007, 11:13 PM

Then what was this forum supposed to be all about?

CaDan's answer is true:

If was formed for the more violent of the Baptists who no longer wished to hear about peace and kicked y'all out of their forum with the assistance of Reformed Administrators.

tulc(been kicked out of lots of places but that one rankled a lot)

WayneinMaine · #26 17th July 2007, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by CaDan

A slight correction.

If was formed for the more violent of the Baptists who no longer wished to hear about peace and kicked y'all out of their forum with the assistance of Reformed Administrators.

At least they didn't throw us in prison or burn us at the stake.

Perhaps this group should be merged with the Baptists, and conservative Anabaptists can play consistency police, holding Baptists accountable for their claim to an Anabaptist lineage.

That would of course leave no forum for a respectful and sympathetic discussion of Anabaptist distinctives, but I recognize that Conservative Anabaptists and those seeking in those quarters have, for a variety of reasons, shunned (or been pushed out of) Christian Forums.

Crazy Liz · #27 17th July 2007, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by WayneinMaine

At least they didn't throw us in prison or burn us at the stake.

True. I found it quite interesting that the groups that have historically developed the theological arguments for separation of church and state because of having had the force of law used against them in this way would feel like that was not enough of a commonality to allow us to fellowship together.

In the process, though, I learned that quite a lot of Baptists are backing away from that theological position. I'm not sure how they can continue to hold a number of other Baptist distinctives if this one goes away, but it was a point of dialogue I found among the most interesting. I think theological distinctives of denominations are possibly fading away at this time in Christian history, and I find that a very interesting topic of discussion among groups that share some, but not all, of these historical theological distinctives.

Perhaps this group should be merged with the Baptists, and conservative Anabaptists can play consistency police, holding Baptists accountable for their claim to an Anabaptist lineage.

Perhaps. Perhaps a bit of that happened before.

That would of course leave no forum for a respectful and sympathetic discussion of Anabaptist distinctives, but I recognize that Conservative Anabaptists and those seeking in those quarters have, for a variety of reasons, shunned (or been pushed out of) Christian Forums.

I have a couple of different responses to this.

First, why do you think conservative Anabaptists have shunned (or felt pushed out of) CF?

Do you think there is a chance to build a viable community of conservative Anabaptists here, or do you think these reasons will make it impossible?

Second, there is one way I can think of that there could be a place for the kind of discussion you want and also the kind of broader discussion others are interested in. In fact, it was proposed before the B/A split. The two groups could be combined into one Congregation forum, where all kinds of discussion would be allowed, and the larger Congregation could request subforums that would be intended for smaller, more exclusive types of discussions. The Charismatic/Pentecostal forum is organized this way.

I don't know if this kind of organization would satisfy everyone, but you might want to think about whether it would satisfy you. A subforum for conservative Anabaptsits, or just Anabaptists in general, one for Baptists only (or even Southern Baptists, Reformed Baptists, etc.), one for Friends, one for Brethren, etc. might be helpful. There would still also be a common area, where those who would like to interact with more distantly related groups could do so. Personally, I would have no objection to that. I find the ecumenical dialogue between related groups the most interesting and stimulating. Others prefer to be more sectarian.

I didn't intend this thread to be more than a thought-provoking question to stimulate discussion about what kind of interaction we would like, evaluating past experience, and thinking about what ways this forum could or should change now that CF has made some major changes.

WayneinMaine · #28 18th July 2007, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Crazy Liz

Some of the points you have raised, like the thought that Anabaptists are by nature sectarian (and Quakers are less so) are quite interesting. I wonder what that would mean for this forum. Might it mean that we should have a collection of sectarian sub forums, which could split when differences arose within them? That might actually be an interesting experiment.

But CF does have a collection of sectarian sub forums. Right down to the Salvation Army (which is a Wesleyan / holiness offshoot)

I asked the question as I did because this forum has an unusual history. It was not formed because a group formed that thought they needed a forum, and approached the administration of CF to ask for a place. It was formed because a larger group didn't want us. We never had an opportunity to create our own identity. In the first day or two after this forum was created, it was filled with posts about keeping liberals out. So basically the Quakers never felt welcome.

I understand where you are coming from. Quakers have less in common with Baptists than do Anabaptists. Have the Quakers on CF asked for their own forum?

I know for a fact though that many people, myself included, who hold to conservative Anabaptist values felt attacked by a couple members of this forum in particular who wanted to use it as a vehicle for venting their bitterness toward Conservative Mennonites and Amish. The conflict did not start with conservatives wanting to throw liberals out, the conflict started when disinformation and hostility was being spread by some very aggressive participants who were actually hostile to the basic theology and world view historically associated with Anabaptism.

When someone posts a sign that says "Anabaptists gather here" one should not be surprised that the folks who gather there are inclined toward Anabaptism. Modern, distinctly Anabaptist groups are still distinguished by things like head covering, separation from the world, conservative values. Attacks on those values, especially from a perspective that actually rejects or is hostile to core, historic Anabaptist ideas are naturally going to come raise conflict.

This forum started by the fiat of a number of people who never participated here. After the space was created, other people, like yourself, did move in. That is fine with me.

Now that CF has entered a new stage, a number of the people the Baptists intended to exile in this ghetto have come back to see what's happening in the space created for us. It looks like we still aren't wanted here.

What makes you say you are not wanted here? If you are Anabaptist in belief and practice then contribute to the discussion group on Anabaptism. You are the one who started this thread, and suggested reconciliation with the Baptists, seemingly suggesting that we don't need an Anabaptist forum. I'm suggesting that you voted with your feet. If this was remade into a Quaker forum I would vote with my feet. I say we need this forum and it would be good if it was an unambiguously Anabaptist forum.

If this is an Anabaptist forum, it should be a good place for positive discussion of Anabaptism. If this is a "Historic Peace Churches" forum then it should be renamed, and any discussion of Anabaptism is just subject to its intended purpose.

Here I am. Here is Joykins. We used to be part of B/A, but the exile left us homeless. We weren't even wanted in the ghetto. We again present ourselves to you. Would you like us to share with you about our pilgrimage and to share with us how you have formed a community here? Is the community you've formed one that perhaps now might have a place for us? Or have your attempts to form a community not been completely successful? What do you need? Is there something we can offer?

This is a discussion forum, not a community; this is not a church, this is nobody's "home". The forums on CF are categorized along lines of interest, largely along theological categories. In the end that is what this discussion is about, it's not about pilgrimages and ghettos and homelessness, it's about categories in an Internet chat group.

tulc · #29 18th July 2007, 09:35 AM

This is a discussion forum, not a community; this is not a church, this is nobody's "home". The forums on CF are categorized along lines of interest, largely along theological categories. In the end that is what this discussion is about, it's not about pilgrimages and ghettos and homelessness, it's about categories in an Internet chat group.

Uhmmm, you do realize you've missed the point, right?

You have decided what this forum is/isn't, and are now dismissing what Crazy Liz is saying because it doesn't fit your agenda. (IMHO)

tulc(just a thought)

Lisa0315 · #30 18th July 2007, 07:27 PM

Independent Baptist here who is all for a reunion.

I was not around for the split, so I don't know what happened or why, but I would like to see you guys back with us.

I have made this link to get us started, but the first order of business has to be to officially bring our groups together. It appears that the consensus in the Baptist area is that they would like a reunion. What do you think the majority would like here?

http://www.christianforums.com/t5721...ion-items.html

I assure all of you that if the consensus of Baptists vote "No", I will resign my congregational membership and ask to join you guys over here.

May I start a joint poll between our groups to see if a reunion is possible?

Lisa