| Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums. |
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22nd September 2003, 10:35 AM
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Reps: 427,521,690,148,968,832 (power: 427,521,690,148,993) | | Originally Posted by Ark Guy lucaspa:
Strawman start. That all of Genesis is an allegory is not the claim. The claim is that Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 are allegorical. That is, they stand as representatives of each and every one of us.
..ah, show me where this is taught in scripture...you see I showed you where scriptures teaches they were literal people created from the dust and Adams side.....so, it's your turn, either put up or shut up...it's that simple.
What you showed is where later scripture refers to the story, not that the speakers thought them literal. Look in the Pauline letters and you find passages where Adam stands as the one Jesus saves by his sacrifice. You also find in the Pauline letters that Jesus' sacrifice saves every one of us.
Also, go look at the "names" in Hebrew. Altho we translate "Adam" as "Man" or "mankind", the literal meaning of the word is "Dirt". "Eve" is hearth. These are not names for real people. Instead, they are symbolic names, symbolizing their role in the story.
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"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890 |
22nd September 2003, 10:37 AM
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Reps: 427,521,690,148,968,832 (power: 427,521,690,148,993) | | Originally Posted by Outspoken "Strawman start. That all of Genesis is an allegory is not the claim. The claim is that Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 are allegorical. That is, they stand as representatives of each and every one of us."
lucaspa, this is an easy claim to falisy and to show that genesis 2 is not alagorical at all. Simply look at the NT. Paul several times specifically refers to adam in relation to Christ. Christ is a literal person, thus adam is as well since it is a direct comparsion. This is just one of many reasons.
The logic is non-sequitor. That Jesus is a real person does not mean that Adam has to be a literal person. We today compare people using the phrases "Jovian temper" and "Herculean physique". Since the people we are directly comparing Jove and Hercules to are literal, does that make Zeus and Hercules literal?
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"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890 |
22nd September 2003, 10:45 AM
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Reps: 427,521,690,148,968,832 (power: 427,521,690,148,993) | | Originally Posted by Alessandro To accept it as what it is as what God says, or to make our own conclusions, modifications and assumptions as what it might and could mean. No need to complicate it and use our intelligence over God's. If one choses not to accept it for what it is in one part, that could very well mean that the same could be applied to other parts of the Bible and God's Word. That I do not accept. I choose God's wisdom over mine.
What do you do with Luke 2:1. The text clearly says the whole world was enrolled. Do you believe that? Were Japanese, Sioux, and Zulus enrolled? If not, why not? You said you could not accept using our own conclusions in one part and not another. Yet isn't that what you are doing?
If it did not mean the whole earth, God would not have said it. It would also mean partial judgement.
Then God would not have said Ceasar Augustus ordered the whole world enrolled if He did not mean it, right?
I chose to take God's Word for what it is. Some others may want a different explanation and interpretation.
I submit that you choose to take your literal interpretation over God's Word. God's other word: His Creaton. If God really created, isn't the Creation just as much, or more, God's Word than the Bible? Why take your literal interpretation of the Bible over God?
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"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890 |
22nd September 2003, 10:51 AM
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Reps: 427,521,690,148,968,832 (power: 427,521,690,148,993) | | Originally Posted by streddog I take the Bibke literaly. I just can't understand why God would give us a book that contains all of the knowledge of him that we have and make it allegory. Why would He give us something that we could misinterpret? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Are you sure that the Bible contains all the knowledge of God we have? What about the Holy Spirit and communication with individuals? What about God's Creation? Doesn't that tell us some knowledge about Him?
Jesus taught in allegory in the form of parables. You certainly don't take the parables literally, do you? As Vance has pointed out, do you read allegory into the Song of Solomon? Or do you take it literally as a paean to erotic (and non-marital) love?
If you take the Bible literally, why was God so stupid as to take one gift from one grandchild -- Abel -- and reject the gift of another grandchild -- Cain? Any human grandparent knows you hang both pictures on the fridge. Why was God so stupid as to make humans such that they would disobey Him? Why did God pick a people for His Chosen people that were so flighty that immediately after all the miracles of the Exodus they made a graven image to worship?
If you read the Bible literally, you have lots of examples of lapses of judgement on God's part. Why do you have a problem of one more?
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"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890 |
22nd September 2003, 11:10 AM
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his feet run to mischief
he knows not why |
22nd September 2003, 12:20 PM
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Reps: 41,540 (power: 61) | | Originally Posted by ten-k what can be said of a master of self-deciet?
his feet run to mischief
he knows not why
Ten-k, is this post addressed to anyone in particular, or is this our Thought for the Day? 
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22nd September 2003, 12:23 PM
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Reps: 427,521,690,148,968,832 (power: 427,521,690,148,993) | | Originally Posted by ten-k what can be said of a master of self-deciet?
his feet run to mischief
he knows not why
Let me echo Plan9's question: is this supposed to refer to the personality or content of any particular poster or post? Or, like Plan9 said, is it a general thought for the day?
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"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890 |
23rd September 2003, 04:51 PM
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Good luck. |
23rd September 2003, 06:19 PM
|  | Contributor
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Reps: 18,396 (power: 34) | | | Why is it that the rudest, most childish, and most insulting posters on this group are all YEC's?
Why is it that those who post the most conclusory, dogmatic, and unsubstantiated posts are all YEC's?
Why is it that the only posters who regularly tell their fellow Bible-believing, Spirit-filled Christians that they can not be true Christians are all YEC's?
In short, why is it that the least Christ-like of all the posters on this group are the ones who claim to be the only true Christians: the YEC's?
While not all YEC's fit this description, it is definitely true that all who fit this description are YEC's.
These timeless questions should really be a new thread . . . |
23rd September 2003, 06:34 PM
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