God's Wrath... do you believe this?

Ceridwen · #1 21st June 2007, 04:28 PM

In a chapter entitled "God the Judge" from his book Knowing God, J.I. Packer makes a statement about the nature of God's conduct:

Retribution
From what has been said, it becomes clear that the Bible's proclamation of God's work as Judge is part of its witness to his character. It confirms what is said elsewhere of his moral perfection, his righteousness and justice, his wisdom, omniscience and omnipotence. It shows us also that the heart of the justice which expresses God's nature is retribution, the rendering to persons what they have deserved; for this is the essence of the judge's task. To reward good with good, and evil with evil, is natural to God.

J. I. Packer, Knowing God (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1993), p. 142 (emphasis and bolding in original).

I was wondering if you guys believe what J.I. Packer says here, especially the last sentence. Do you guys believe that God ever rewards evil with evil as Packer says? What does it mean for God to give evil? Thanks for considering this question!

Colabomb · #2 21st June 2007, 04:35 PM

I believe God Punishes Sin. However Concerning Packer's Claim, I'd have to study it more and its context before I comment.

Simon_Templar · #3 21st June 2007, 04:50 PM

I suppose it depends on what you mean by evil in that context.

God will destroy those who hate him, and he will bring disaster upon those who persecute and trouble his people.
From our human perspective, destruction and disaster are generally considered "evil". However, when they are deserved, are they really evil?

I would guess that in the context of the quote Packer is using evil in the sense of 'misfortune' and 'calamity' rather than moral evil.

An example of this scripturally is in Isaiah, I can't rember the exact citation now, but God says that he makes peace, and he says "I the Lord create evil..." however the evil that is being spoken of is in the context of natural disasters and storms etc. Calamity.

Colabomb · #4 21st June 2007, 05:26 PM

It also has to do with Translation. The text is often quoted in the King James, and at that time Evil had multiple meanings, one of which being as you say Calamity.

Ceridwen · #5 21st June 2007, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Colabomb

It also has to do with Translation. The text is often quoted in the King James, and at that time Evil had multiple meanings, one of which being as you say Calamity.

The Bible also says that God will curse certain persons for their wrong. The word "curse" is liberally used in the Bible to describe God's conduct toward certain others. This seems to be a way of expressing the idea of God's retribution of evil for evil without using the word "evil." Do Anglicans believe that God ever lays curses on other people?

Aymn27 · #6 21st June 2007, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ceridwen

In a chapter entitled "God the Judge" from his book Knowing God, J.I. Packer makes a statement about the nature of God's conduct:
Retribution
From what has been said, it becomes clear that the Bible's proclamation of God's work as Judge is part of its witness to his character. It confirms what is said elsewhere of his moral perfection, his righteousness and justice, his wisdom, omniscience and omnipotence. It shows us also that the heart of the justice which expresses God's nature is retribution, the rendering to persons what they have deserved; for this is the essence of the judge's task. To reward good with good, and evil with evil, is natural to God.

J. I. Packer, Knowing God (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1993), p. 142 (emphasis and bolding in original).

I was wondering if you guys believe what J.I. Packer says here, especially the last sentence. Do you guys believe that God ever rewards evil with evil as Packer says? What does it mean for God to give evil? Thanks for considering this question!

yes..I believe this...I wouldn't say that He "does" evil though, but rather fails to provide favor and protection from the evil one...thus the end result of evil for evil...

higgs2 · #7 21st June 2007, 10:26 PM

No. I believe that evil often results in misery, but certainly not always. I don't believe that God causes calamities to happen to punish evil people. And we know that good is not necessarily rewarded with good. At least in this lifetime.

Why do you ask, and what do you think of these statements, Ceridwen?

Iosias · #8 22nd June 2007, 12:03 PM

God's goodness is demonstrated when he punishes evildoers. God punishes evildoers for their sinful acts and nature.

May I suggest Despising God's Goodness by Rev Herman Hoeksema.

Psalm 92:5-8 "O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep. A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this. When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: But thou, LORD, art most high for evermore."

Psalm 73:3-20 "For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men. Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment. Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish. They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily. They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth. Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them. And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High? Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches. Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning. If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children. When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors. As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image."

Ceridwen · #9 22nd June 2007, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by higgs2

Why do you ask, and what do you think of these statements, Ceridwen?

I am trying to make up my mind! Thanks for asking.

The Anglican Church is very interesting because within it can be found both the most theologically conservative people and the most theologically liberal. J.I. Packer is an Anglican and a Calvinist of the purest kind. But the Anglicans also have a lot of liberal theologians.

There are also extreme modernists and traditionalists, and these don't always correspond with the expected conservative/liberal division. For example, there are Anglican churches that focus on the Early Church Fathers and traditional liturgy, but reject what they would call the "narrowness" of Protestant and Calvinist theology.

The Anglican Communion certainly is different. But I guess similar things can be said about the Catholic Church or to Mainline Presbyterianism and Lutheranism. Also the Methodists... Maybe the Anglicans aren't so unique...

Iosias · #10 22nd June 2007, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ceridwen

The Anglican Church is very interesting because within it can be found both the most theologically conservative people and the most theologically liberal.

"Interesting" but not desirable IMO.