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  #1  
Old 1st June 2007, 06:20 PM
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Fermented wine or grape juice?

Here is what the SDA would have you to believe with their translation of the Bible. Everywhere wine is spoken of they put grape juice. You tell me if grape juice fits the context of these verses.

John 2:10 And he said to him, "Every man at the beginning sets out the good grape juice, and when the guests have well drunk, then that which is inferior; but you have kept the good grape juice until now.''

Luke 7:33-34 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking grape juice; and ye say, He hath a devil.The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a grapejuicebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

1 Timothy 3:2-3 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to grape juice, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

1 Timothy 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much grape juice, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much grape juice, teachers of good things;

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little grape juice for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Psalms 104:15 And grape juice that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
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  #2  
Old 2nd June 2007, 01:08 PM
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LOL!!! Yes it is true. We Seventh-Day Adventists like to think of it as grape juice. I've been in church and heard 'grape juice' substituted for wine like crazy! I think that since Jesus drank wine.... I'm not sure if he drank the real wine or not (doubt it) but that may be the reason.
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  #3  
Old 2nd June 2007, 07:14 PM
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I don't think people in Bible times made that much of a distinction between unfermented grape juice and fermented wine. However, the Israelites were even directed to consume fermented wine during some of their religious ceremonies, with the blessing of God:
DT 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
Only Nazirites were prohibited from drinking any wine at all, and their restrictions included grape juice, grapes, grape skins, raisins, etc.--any part of what grew on a grapevine (Numbers 6:2-4).

I also think that Jesus probably did drink real wine; otherwise, the Pharisees' accusations about His eating and drinking wouldn't have made any sense in the context (Matthew 11:18-19; Luke 7:33-34).
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Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:16-18)



Last edited by Sophia7; 13th June 2007 at 12:14 AM.
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  #4  
Old 2nd June 2007, 07:37 PM
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Sophia7

Well praise the Lord for your insight...

We need more people who are willing to let the Bible speak for itself.

Many blessings,
John
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  #5  
Old 4th June 2007, 10:28 PM
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Let me shed a little more light on the subject.

What makes fermented wine such a blessing from just plain old grape juice is its ablility to make the heart merry, in other words, get a buzz going.

Psalms 104:15 And wine that makes glad the heart of man, Oil to make his face shine, And bread which strengthens man's heart.

Fermented wine can ease the pain of death and lift a heavy heart.

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Oh don't get me wrong, God does not what His priest to drink while on duty.

Ezekiel 44:21 "No priest shall drink wine when he enters the inner court.

Lev.10:8-9 Then the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying: "Do not drink wine or intoxicating drink, you, nor your sons with you, when you go into the tabernacle of meeting, lest you die.

This tells me that they coud drink wine if they were not in the tabernacle.

Oh yah, what about the Nazirite. He too was not allowed to drink while on duty but aferwards its was okay to have a cold Bud after a long day at the office, Bud light of course.

Numbers 6:1-5 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: `When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord,`he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins.`All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.`All the days of the vow of his separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the Lord, he shall be holy.

Numbers 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

What a blessing femented wine can be for thoes who know the truth. But for those who don't know the truth God tells us to treat them as weaker brothers and sisters.

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

Many blessings,
John
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  #6  
Old 4th June 2007, 11:35 PM
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What is amazing is that this is still debated in the SDA church. How much grape juice you would have to drink to get drunk?

(1 Cor 11:20-22 NIV) When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
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  #7  
Old 5th June 2007, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by RC_NewProtestants View Post
What is amazing is that this is still debated in the SDA church. How much grape juice you would have to drink to get drunk?

(1 Cor 11:20-22 NIV) When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
Hi RC_NewProtestants,

Thanks for your reply.

The problem we face with the plain verse you quoted is that it has been taught that these people came to the supper drunk already. This is a perfect example of Scripture manipulation to make it fit our beliefs. If we can just let the Bible speak for itself the truth would make us free...

Many blessings,
John vbmenu_register("postmenu_35409039", true);
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Old 5th June 2007, 11:29 PM
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Maco,

Just don't forget what I posted in the other thread about selfishness.
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  #9  
Old 5th June 2007, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Loveaboveall View Post
Maco,

Just don't forget what I posted in the other thread about selfishness.
Selfishness is when you don't obey Romans 14:21.

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

We as mature Christians, who know the truth, should not eat meat or drink fermented wine in front of a weaker brother. A weaker brother is one who believes drinking fermented wine or eating meat is sinful.

Many blessings,
John
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  #10  
Old 6th June 2007, 09:32 AM
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One step further, I hope this helps.

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by them who believe and know the truth.

God clearly tells His people not to follow the doctrines and commandments of men. There are some who say eating meat is forbidden but from the above verse this is a commandment of men. According to the above verse it’s those who believe and know the truth that understand that eating meat is not sinful.

Now take this thought over to Romans 14:21.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing by which thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Here God has place meat and fermented wine in the same category. He goes on to say that there are people in the world who are following the doctrines and commandments of men because they believe eating meat is sinful. God’s calls them a weaker brother but for us who know and believe the truth meat and fermented wine is not sinful.
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